The Trump Indictment Thread

Perhaps giving Trump enough rope is the best strategy. His base seems like they’re sticking with him, but I don’t get the same tension that existed after the 2020 election. We’ve heard this song from Trump before.

He is absolutely a threat and a danger, but he’s so goddamn obnoxious and predictable that if you monitor the situation and let him get away with these vague threats, he may just keep talking and add more evidence for the prosecution.
 
Meanwhile, the judge in the Ruby Freeman case has clearly caught onto Giuliani’s Chewbacca defense:

Filed & Entered:
08/04/2023​
Order
Docket Text: MINUTE ORDER (paperless) DIRECTING defendant Giuliani to CLARIFY his [84-2] "Nole Contendre [sic] Stipulation" ("Giuliani Stipulation"), submitted in response to plaintiffs' [81] Motion for Discovery Sanctions Against Defendant Rudolph Giuliani For Failure to Preserve Electronic Evidence ("Pls.' Motion"), which unsworn stipulation signed by defendant Giuliani contests no part of plaintiffs' motion but rather purports to set out concessions sufficient to avoid further discovery demands and the risk of concomitant sanctions for failure to comply with discovery obligations, under Federal Rules of Civil Procedure 26 through 37, but simultaneously contains multiple caveats and limitations undercutting that purpose. For example, the Giuliani Stipulation concedes:

1. that defendant Giuliani "made the statements of and concerning Plaintiffs, which include all of the statements detailed in Plaintiffs['] [sic] Amended Complaint, ECF No. 22 at ¶¶ 57-101,"

2. "that the statements carry meaning that is defamatory per se,"

3. that defendant Giuliani "published those statements to third parties,"

4. "that, to the extent the statements were statement of fact and otherwise actionable, such actionable factual statements were false[,]" and

5. that defendant Giuliani "does not contest... the factual elements of liability (subject to any retained affirmative defenses not expressly waived herein) regarding Plaintiffs' claim for intentional infliction of emotional distress and other related tort claims."

Giuliani Stip. ¶¶ 1-4. Yet, these concessions appear to be significantly limited with caveats that the Giuliani Stipulation:

1. is made only "for the purposes of this litigation before this Court and on Appeal," id. ¶ 1; see also id. ¶¶ 2-4;

2. "does not affect... his argument that his statements are constitutionally protected statements or opinions or [that plaintiffs' claims are barred by] any applicable statute of limitations," id. ¶¶ 3, 4, despite denial of defendant Giuliani's [26] Motion to Dismiss plaintiffs' complaint on these same grounds, in which motion plaintiffs' allegations were legally required to be assumed as true, see generally Freeman v. Giuliani, Civ. No. 21-3354 (BAH), 2022 U.S. Dist. LEXIS 197768 (D.D.C. Oct. 31, 2022), leaving no room for continued viability of such defenses, let alone reservation of such defenses, if plaintiffs' allegations are conceded as true, as the Giuliani Stipulation purports to do;

3. is "subject to any retained affirmative defenses not expressly waived herein," Giuliani Stip. ¶ 4, which affirmative defenses may include any one of the six such defenses asserted in Def.'s [33] Answer ¶¶ 193-198, that may provide a complete defense to liability and were not "expressly waived" in the Giuliani Stipulation;

4. "does not affect Giuliani's ability to seek setoff, offset or settlement credit, or that Giuliani's conduct, in fact, caused Plaintiffs any damages, and the amount of any alleged damages Giuliani's conduct may have caused," Giuliani Stip. ¶ 4; and

5. "does not affect Giuliani's argument [as to] any other legal defense not expressly waived by this Stipulation," id., which may allude to the six affirmative defenses asserted in Def.'s [33] Answer ¶¶ 193-198, or other unspecified defenses.

Given the seemingly incongruous and certainly puzzling caveats contained in the Giuliani Stipulation, plaintiffs' counsel recounts efforts to obtain clarification from defendant Giuliani's counsel, see Pls.' [86] Reply Supp. Mot. For Discovery Sanctions Ag. Def. Giuliani For Failure to Preserve Electronic Evid., at 3-5 (recounting defense counsel's confirmation to plaintiffs' counsel that defendant Giuliani (1) stipulates to all elements of plaintiffs' claims for defamation, intentional infliction of emotional distress, and civil conspiracy; and (2) "would 'not contest willfulness for purposes of punitive damages'"), but no such clarification has been submitted directly to the Court by defendant Giuliani or otherwise acknowledged by defendant Giuliani.

Accordingly, for the above reasons, defendant Giuliani is DIRECTED, by August 8, 2023 at 4:00 PM, to submit to the Court either:

(a) a superseding stipulation in which he

(i) concedes, for purposes of this litigation, all factual allegations in plaintiffs' [22] Amended Complaint as to his liability for plaintiffs' defamation, intentional infliction of emotional distress, and civil conspiracy claims, and his liability as to plaintiffs' claim for punitive damages, see U.S. Sec. & Exch. Comm'n v. China Infrastructure Inv. Corp., 189 F. Supp. 3d 118, 128 (D.D.C. 2016) (Howell, C.J.) (noting that "[a] defaulting defendant concedes all well-pleaded factual allegations as to liability, though the court may require additional evidence concerning damages") (quoting Al-Quraan v. 4115 8th St. NW, LLC, 123 F. Supp. 3d 1, 1 (D.D.C. 2015)); and

(ii) concedes that entry of default judgment on liability is appropriate in this case, see Adkins v. Teseo, 180 F. Supp. 2d 15, 1718 (D.D.C. 2001) (entering default judgment after finding that plaintiffs "satisfied each element" of the pleaded cause of action); or

(b) an explanation for declining to submit the superseding stipulation described in paragraph (a), above, that also provides clarification as to what precisely his original stipulation conceded regarding the plaintiffs' factual allegations and legal claims.

Should defendant Giuliani not file the superseding stipulation described in paragraph (a), above, the parties are DIRECTED to appear in Courtroom 26A on August 15, 2023 at 11:00 AM for a hearing on both plaintiffs' [81] Motion, and the status of defendant Giuliani's compliance with the Court's May 31, 2023 Minute Order ("May Order") (as amended by the June 16, 2023 Minute Order), directing him to "search and produce all materials responsive to plaintiffs' RFPs... within the date ranges agreed to by the parties, with the assistance of a professional vendor." Signed by Judge Beryl A. Howell on August 4, 2023. (lcbah4)
 
Meanwhile, the judge in the Ruby Freeman case has clearly caught onto Giuliani’s Chewbacca defense:

When you have no defense, then you tie yourself in knots. Glad to see this happening to Co-Conspirator 1.

What they did to Ruby Freeman and her daughter is especially disgusting. Imagine if you volunteered to hand out flyers and the f*****g insane president and his lawyer start attacking you for handing out fake ballots like crack. And they did it with zero remorse. Yet another single instance of inexcusable behavior that should render Trump unfit for office.

Meanwhile, after Trump’s threatening post, Jack Smith’s office has requested a protective order to prevent Trump from disseminating discovery evidence.

There’s no way Trump complies with all the rules against him in the various cases he’s facing.

Oh, and we’re STILL under indictment watch!
 
What they did to Ruby Freeman and her daughter is especially disgusting.

I remember hearing their story before Schiff's committee mid last year. In a word, heartbreaking. Hearing how trump supporters came out against them was vile, especially when Ruby and Shaye said their life would never be the same, and there was nowhere they could ever feel safe.

Just when I thought I couldn't hate trump any more than I did, I proved myself wrong after that.
 
@Cmaier,

Since Trump has now been officially indicted for Jan 6th, is he now entitled to ALL videos, interviews, testimony etc that any branch of the government has?
 
He's entitled to see all the evidence being used against him, yeah. That's part and parcel with the discovery process.
and you know is dumb ass lawyer will let him run with it because they are pushing the whole first amendment argument.
 
and you know is dumb ass lawyer will let him run with it because they are pushing the whole first amendment argument.

Probably. I'm fairly certain his intentions are to leak any and all information presented him in order to bias the case, so he can claim that since so many people have read and commented on it, there's absolutely no possible way they could find an unbiased jury to hear his trial.

It's safe to assume that Trump knows he's going to lose his case, so he's now preaching to his crowd, playing the victimized martyr to their great cause.
 
... is he now entitled to ALL videos, interviews, testimony etc that any branch of the government has?

I would say almost. If there is classified material, unless he has found co-defendants lawyers who have adequate clearance, the full, unredacted documents cannot be provided to his team.
 
I would say almost. If there is classified material, unless he has found co-defendants lawyers who have adequate clearance, the full, unredacted documents cannot be provided to his team.

This probably isn't an issue with the election interference trial, though.
 
He's entitled to see all the evidence being used against him, yeah. That's part and parcel with the discovery process.
Exactly, and the man reason the DOJ is seeking the order now. If Trump had his way he would list names, addresses and all of it.
 
Exactly, and the man reason the DOJ is seeking the order now. If Trump had his way he would list names, addresses and all of it.

Question is, what does the DOJ think that gag order will achieve? He's gonna do it anyway.
 
Trump has until Monday to respond. He asked for a 3-day extension and was denied:


This is quite unusual, in my experience, and shows that the judge is not going to put up with Trump’s attempts to delay the trial. More importantly, it suggests to me that she wants to deal with his threatening of the prosecutors and jury as soon as possible.
 
@Cmaier,

Since Trump has now been officially indicted for Jan 6th, is he now entitled to ALL videos, interviews, testimony etc that any branch of the government has?

I’m not sure what you mean - he wasn’t indicted for Jan. 6. He was indicted for fraud, for violating civil rights, etc.

He is entitled to any exculpatory evidence the government has, which is not “ALL videos… the government has.” The videos, etc. have to be relevant to the matters in the indictment, and probative of innocence or guilt. It’s not an opportunity for a fishing expedition into Hunter Biden’s penis, or whether the guy with he horn hat and face paint did the right thing or not.
 
To be clear for my MAGA friends, the indictment alleges the following crimes:

  • one count of conspiracy to defraud the United States applies to Trump's repeated and widespread efforts to spread false claims about the November 2020 election while knowing they were not true and for allegedly attempting to illegally discount legitimate votes all with the goal of overturning the 2020 election, prosecutors claim in the indictment. This is not limited to activities on Jan. 6. It includes things like pressuring officials, conspiring with Clark to send false claims to states from the DoJ, etc.

  • one count of conspiracy to obstruct an official proceeding was brought due to the alleged organized planning by Trump and his allies to disrupt the electoral vote's certification in January 2021. This includes things like pressuring Pence to delay the proceedings, false electors, etc.

  • one count of obstruction of and attempt to obstruct an official proceeding is tied to Trump and his co-conspirators' alleged efforts after the November 2020 election until Jan. 7, 2021, to block the official certification proceeding in Congress. Same actions as above, in all likelihood. The difference is the above is a conspiracy count and this is not.

  • one count of conspiracy against rights refers to Trump and his co-conspirators alleged attempts to "oppress, threaten and intimidate" people in their right to vote in an election. This includes at least the actions he took to throw out the votes of millions of people, and includes most of the above acts.
He was not charged with inciting a riot on Jan. 6, lying, etc. None of this involves speech. It was all specific actions he took. If he spoke to people in committing those acts, that’s the case for every conspiracy - you can’t conspire without talking to people, after all. You also can’t extort people, blackmail people, etc. without talking. Many crimes involve talking (or communicating) with people. The problem was not the speech, but the acts he and his co-conspirators committed.
 
I hope folks can keep their jets cooled and pay attention to reason.

Screen Shot 2023-08-05 at 5.52.14 PM.png
 
Trump has until Monday to respond. He asked for a 3-day extension and was denied:


This is quite unusual, in my experience, and shows that the judge is not going to put up with Trump’s attempts to delay the trial. More importantly, it suggests to me that she wants to deal with his threatening of the prosecutors and jury as soon as possible.
I think trump will ask for a delay when the devil claims his soul.
 
Question is, what does the DOJ think that gag order will achieve? He's gonna do it anyway.
The same reason lawyers try to get any other kind of hard-to-enforce order (protective orders, etc.) You hope and assume that people obey them, but, if not, there’s always a chance they get caught. In fact, it happens far more than you would think. Somebody slips up and admits something in a deposition. Documents are accidentally produced. Third parties overhear things. People blab about what they did to their frIends. And sometimes the police may just have a wiretap going…
 
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