The Trump Indictment Thread

[GermanSuplex]

What evidence? Every time the Rs say there’s evidence they turn out to be mistaken (I’m being kind here). My favorite latest example is the transcripts of Joe and Hunter on the phone. The right shouted “we got ‘em now!” And the transcripts showed they discussed health and fishing. What is wrong with you people?!

Fishing for what? ASIAN carp.

 

[rdrr]

Looks like Cannon is up to her shenanigans again. There should have been a stronger push to remove her from these proceedings. She showed lack of knowledge of the law and a bias towards Trump.

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/202...judge-aileen-cannons-latest-pro-trump-rulings

 

[mac_in_tosh]

This is ground one must tread cautiously. If someone asks you "when did you quit beating your wife," presenting a fim defense is absolute folly. You simply have to avoid giving the impression that a there can be found there. Adamantly defending yourself works to validate the premise that an accusation might be meaningful, so you ignore it for as long as possible. Because, defending yourself, ironically, makes you look weak.

I'm not saying Biden should spend all his time countering Trump's and the GOP's nonsense about his corruption, but has he made any kind of forceful counter to it? If someone asked me the question you posed, I would say that I never beat my wife, that you have zero evidence that I did and that your question is leading. I wouldn't let someone go on and on claiming that I did.

By giving Trump all the space to continually say that Biden is the most corrupt president in history, sooner or later (sooner with his deplorables) some number of people are going to take it as reality. I may have missed it, but has Biden addressed these accusations at all?

 

[Herdfan]

American politics is structured disturbingly like a tournament. Watch election night coverage, the way they report ballot tallies like some sort of game, and somebody is going to "win". Which is a problem if you want to actually address issues in a sensible way, because the winner has the trophy and the trophy gives them the right to fuck things up as they see fit.

Which is to say that politics is playing games with our lives while insisting that we are the ones who have to stay inbounds.

Sadly, this nails it.

My team vs your team. But not like a softball league where everyone gathers at the bar together after the game.

 

[Citysnaps]

My team vs your team. But not like a softball league where everyone gathers at the bar together after the game.

So why does it have to be that way?

If Biden, or any other candidate (I'm neither a D or R) did a fraction of what trump has done, I'd drop him in an instant.

 

[Roller]

Sadly, this nails it.

My team vs your team. But not like a softball league where everyone gathers at the bar together after the game.

In sports, it's appropriate for both teams to try to win, but not by having everyone on one squad, from the manager on down, flagrantly break the rules of play. Fortunately, there are referees and other officials who have the power to eject people from the game to prevent or limit such behavior.

But the analogy isn't perfect, since winning on the field isn't meant to be in furtherance of improving people's lives, as it should be in politics and governance. Still, it used to be that Republicans, Democrats, and Independents could cooperate for the common good, and would at least be confident that norms of conduct would generally be followed. And, if they weren't, Republicans would act, as they did when they convinced Richard Nixon to resign.

No longer, and both sides aren't equally at fault by any means. Democrats are imperfect, as all humans are, but most are at least genuinely interested in passing legislation and implementing programs that provide solutions to big problems like climate change, infrastructure decay, healthcare inequity, and pandemics. Unfortunately, far too many Republicans just want to make life miserable for their perceived opponents, and are willing to do anything to remain in power to do so.

 

[Huntn]

American politics is structured disturbingly like a tournament. Watch election night coverage, the way they report ballot tallies like some sort of game, and somebody is going to "win". Which is a problem if you want to actually address issues in a sensible way, because the winner has the trophy and the trophy gives them the right to fuck things up as they see fit.

Which is to say that politics is playing games with our lives while insisting that we are the ones who have to stay inbounds.

What has happened is that the GOP has been chipping away at it’s standards for 40 years, turning into an anti-Democratic monster to make it’s base of losers happy. In essence they have broken bad while pretending to honor the Constitution, becoming cheat anyway they can to hold onto power, corrupt, lying mother fuckers.

And they are not doing this alone, they’ve got millions of citizens who have decided that democracy, equal rights, religious freedom, having bodily autonomy, and live and let live is not all it’s cracked up to be, with a big FUCK YOU and CHOKE ON THIS to the rest of us.

Something has got to to give. Our country is being tested. I would have never guessed the GOP would have made it to this point, which means this country could be in deep shit.

 

[Huntn]

Sadly, this nails it.

My team vs your team. But not like a softball league where everyone gathers at the bar together after the game.

Sure we’ve already seen this game, it’s like Nazis are one team, Jews and anyone who opposes them is the other team, and the game is WWII. The question is what team do you want to be on? This is not an accusation, but a question to support my premise.

You’ll retort this is a wild exaggeration, and I’ll say the intolerance, regression, and parallels to the forces supporting todays GOP, of wholesale ignoring existing rules, throwing them out, and transforming of standards to support a particular political party’s hold on power, especially the willful deceit, is on the same path, and parallels to the 1930s German Nazi Party,

 

[Citysnaps]

Very strong words from conservative Judge Luttig:

"J. Michael Luttig, a conservative retired federal judge and key adviser to former Vice President Mike Pence, declared on Wednesday that “there is no Republican Party” and said former President Donald Trump is even more dangerous than he was in the aftermath of the 2020 election."

https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/09/politics/michael-luttig-conservative-judge-republicans-cnntv/index.html

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

Man killed during FBI raid in connection with threats against Biden, other officials

The raid was in connection with an investigation into alleged threats against President Joe Biden and others, according to two officials briefed on the case.

abcnews.go.com

This is the aspect of Trump and Trumpism that pisses me off the most. Glad they got him before he went off on his little escapade.

There’s part of me that feels bad for these people being mislead into these type actions but it’s not like there isn’t help or alternative (fact based) information out there. They just choose to ignore it.

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

I don’t know how this works in court but it sounds like within this latest indictment there is a reasonable doubt case on whether Trump believed he won the election or not. You can’t just kick everybody out until you are left with nothing but yes men. You can, but that doesn’t shield you from the consequences of continuing to take action based on that lie when there's overwhelming evidence that it is a lie.

The deserved irony here is Trump will probably be taken down by those who grifted him.

 

[fooferdoggie]

Man killed during FBI raid in connection with threats against Biden, other officials

The raid was in connection with an investigation into alleged threats against President Joe Biden and others, according to two officials briefed on the case.

abcnews.go.com

This is the aspect of Trump and Trumpism that pisses me off the most. Glad they got him before he went off on his little escapade.

There’s part of me that feels bad for these people being mislead into these type actions but it’s not like there isn’t help or alternative (fact based) information out there. They just choose to ignore it.

they are adults and are responsible for being so gullible. if you choose to ignore everything that does not agree with your beliefs its on you.

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

they are adults and are responsible for being so gullible. if you choose to ignore everything that does not agree with your beliefs its on you.

You’d think by now these lone wolves (misnomer…”lone wolf” is part of far right indoctrination to create deflection and distance from their organizing) would see that all their predecessors ended up dead or in prison, and possibly most importantly to them, aren’t famous. Although, they are probably so laser focused and consumed that they think these assholes are famous. I couldn’t name one violent Trump patriot that has been taken down. They’re forgotten within days.

 

[Herdfan]

The question is what team do you want to be on? This is not an accusation, but a question to support my premise.

I am assuming you mean which political team and not Jews/Nazi’s.

My team is impotent. I am more Libertarian at heart. I just want government out of my life as much as possible.

I think people should be able to do what they want in their own homes without the government being involved. This includes who they want to have sex with or what substances they want to put in their bodies.

I think the government’s job is to provide us with a safe environment, one they are failing in many locations, and reasonable regulations.

I think we should only spend what we take in and the tax code should be fair to all. But all need to contribute, even if it just a little.

This is just a short summary, but should give you the idea.

 

[Citysnaps]

I think we should only spend what we take in and the tax code should be fair to all. But all need to contribute, even if it just a little.

How do you feel about trump raising the national debt by $7.8 trillion during the time he was in office, mostly benefiting corporations and the wealthy, rising to $10 trillion over the next few years?

 

[Cmaier]

I don’t know how this works in court but it sounds like within this latest indictment there is a reasonable doubt case on whether Trump believed he won the election or not.

Legally irrelevant.

Remember when OJ Simpson (rightfully?) thought that somebody had stolen his sports memorabilia, and went to get them back? With a gun?

You can’t break the law just because you think you’re justified in doing so.

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

Legally irrelevant.

Remember when OJ Simpson (rightfully?) thought that somebody had stolen his sports memorabilia, and went to get them back? With a gun?

You can’t break the law just because you think you’re justified in doing so.

That makes sense, but didn't a lot of the indictment say Trump knew he was lying and wouldn't Trump's lawyers then spend a lot of time trying to prove he thought he won? How quickly is that avenue going to get kicked out of court?

And what about the defense that he was just doing what he was told was legally possible by people he trusted? Couldn't it be argued that Trump only trusted those people because they told him what he wanted to hear while ignoring everybody who wouldn't?

 

[Cmaier]

That makes sense, but didn't a lot of the indictment say Trump knew he was lying and wouldn't Trump's lawyers then spend a lot of time trying to prove he thought he won? How quickly is that avenue going to get kicked out of court?

And what about the defense that he was just doing what he was told was legally possible by people he trusted? Couldn't it be argued that Trump only trusted those people because they told him what he wanted to hear while ignoring everybody who wouldn't?

Advise-of-counsel isn’t a defense. He’s arguing what he can argue, because those are the only things left for him to argue. In the end, those defenses will be subject to motions to exclude, and we’ll see what happens.

(to be fair, the fraud count does likely require knowledge that what he was doing was false. But there are counts not relating to fraud. And he did know that the electors were not the real electors, for example. Doesn’t matter if he thought he should have won the states.)

 

[mac_in_tosh]

The contingency planning for a Trump loss in 2020 was already in motion months before the election with Trump going to claim that it was stolen. Trump was told by his VP, his Attorney General, his campaign chairman, etc. that he lost. They even hired two outside firms to uncover fraud and they came back empty. He also lost dozens of court motions due to lack of evidence as well as every recount. The preponderance of evidence is therefore that he knew he lost. Anyhow, whether he believed he lost or not, it was illegal to attempt to conspire with Pence to delay or prevent the counting of electoral votes.

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

(to be fair, the fraud count does likely require knowledge that what he was doing was false.

That’s mainly the part I’m discussing here. I don’t know if there is any legal standing, but isn’t there a point where somebody goes way out of their way to ignore overwhelming evidence against what they want to believe to the point where “reasonable doubt” comes into play? Like any reasonable person would conclude what they wanted to believe isn’t true given all the evidence.