The Trump Indictment Thread

[Cmaier]

That’s mainly the part I’m discussing here. I don’t know if there is any legal standing, but isn’t there a point where somebody goes way out of their way to ignore overwhelming evidence against what they want to believe to the point where “reasonable doubt” comes into play? Like any reasonable person would conclude what they wanted to believe isn’t true given all the evidence.

Sure. You can;’t stick a straw in someone’s head and suck out their thoughts. So you prove their intent by proving facts and circumstances. It’s almost never the case when you have a document or confession or the like where the defendant admits what they thought.

 

[GermanSuplex]

That makes sense, but didn't a lot of the indictment say Trump knew he was lying and wouldn't Trump's lawyers then spend a lot of time trying to prove he thought he won? How quickly is that avenue going to get kicked out of court?

And what about the defense that he was just doing what he was told was legally possible by people he trusted? Couldn't it be argued that Trump only trusted those people because they told him what he wanted to hear while ignoring everybody who wouldn't?

Won’t work.

Trump can say he really thought the election was stolen, but he also said the same thing about the 2016 Iowa caucus and the 2016 national popular vote. He said BEFORE the 2020 election “I win or it’s rigged” and made numerous mentions of voter fraud before the first ballot was even cast. So if Trump wants to go that route with his defense, there’s a lot to refute it.

But, I don’t think it will matter anyways, because as others have mentioned, you can’t break the law just because you think you’re in the right.

He can’t say he was just listening to lawyers because you have to do so in good faith, and it’s going to be beyond obvious it wasn’t in good faith because Trump ignored all of his skilled, professional help - including his AG and White House counsel - and intentionally excluded them from meetings and plans he was having with his misfit lawyers. It’s lawyer shopping. No different than pretending you’re not pill shopping when ten doctors tell you no and you find the 11th to tell you “yes”.

Trump is going to have argue insanity if he wants his “I really believed it” argument to stick. And if he doesn’t, he’s going to have to testify. The government has the burden of proof, but there’s so much proof that in reality, the burden is on Trump. He’s in a terrible position of having said and done so much publicly that can be used against him, but now he will either have to testify to explain why he ignored every person around him who told him he lost, or the jury will most certainly infer the obvious - he only wanted obedient co-conspirators to help him overturn the election.

Something else to think about, most people aren’t just going to say “I’m stealing an election. The votes shouldn’t matter and I should just be allowed to be president again. Let’s have a coup..”. They’re going to come up with some phony requisite purpose for “pausing” (and eventually overturning) the election.

Who knows what other evidence is out there. Trump’s Twitter account was subpoenaed and information turned over. If incriminating evidence comes out, Musk may not be in the MAGA cult’s good graces for long.

 

[Roller]

One point I haven’t seen discussed. Presumably, a majority of the Grand Jury voted to indict. Jurors aren’t infallible, but I think most take their job seriously and wouldn’t have decided as they did, especially in a case like this.

 

[MEJHarrison]

That’s mainly the part I’m discussing here. I don’t know if there is any legal standing, but isn’t there a point where somebody goes way out of their way to ignore overwhelming evidence against what they want to believe to the point where “reasonable doubt” comes into play? Like any reasonable person would conclude what they wanted to believe isn’t true given all the evidence.

That means his attorneys need to stand in a courtroom and essentially say "Our client was soooo stupid, he actually believed he won the election" and then attempt to prove that he really is that stupid and gullible. That's not going to sit well with his ego or help his campaign. Who wants a president dumb enough to be "fooled" by Rudi?

And that's on top of what the smarter people said about "I thought I won" not being much of a defense in the first place.

 

[fooferdoggie]

That means his attorneys need to stand in a courtroom and essentially say "Our client was soooo stupid, he actually believed he won the election" and then attempt to prove that he really is that stupid and gullible. That's not going to sit well with his ego or help his campaign. Who wants a president dumb enough to be "fooled" by Rudi?

And that's on top of what the smarter people said about "I thought I won" not being much of a defense in the first place.

ya I am wondering how that will fly. his Lawyer is a total yes man so he will do what trump says. but maybe they will bring in witnesses that will swear trump won too

 

[Edd]

Can Trump plead temporary insanity and dodge the charges? If he could, I’d think he’d do it.

 

[Cmaier]

That means his attorneys need to stand in a courtroom and essentially say "Our client was soooo stupid, he actually believed he won the election" and then attempt to prove that he really is that stupid and gullible. That's not going to sit well with his ego or help his campaign. Who wants a president dumb enough to be "fooled" by Rudi?

And that's on top of what the smarter people said about "I thought I won" not being much of a defense in the first place.

They can’t prove he really believed it, simply because the rules of evidence won’t permit them to do so.

1) Trump won’t testify on his own behalf
2) Nobody else is allowed to testify about his state of mind
3) Nobody else can testify about what he said, because anything he said is, if offered by his defense, hearsay.

On the other hand, the prosecution can offer people who testify about things he said (or enter his written or recorded words into evidence), if they want (an exception to hearsay), and can testify about what everyone told him.

He’s cooked.

 

[Herdfan]

How do you feel about trump raising the national debt by $7.8 trillion during the time he was in office, mostly benefiting corporations and the wealthy, rising to $10 trillion over the next few years?

Not a fan.

But federal revenues still increased after the tax cuts (small decrease in 2020 because of Covid).

So I see it as more of a spending problem as opposed to an income problem.

 

[Herdfan]

One point I haven’t seen discussed. Presumably, a majority of the Grand Jury voted to indict. Jurors aren’t infallible, but I think most take their job seriously and wouldn’t have decided as they did, especially in a case like this.

I agree, but as Sol Wachtler, Chief Justice of the NYSSC famously said:

“Any good prosecutor can get a grand jury to indict a ham sandwich.”

 

[MEJHarrison]

He’s cooked.

As long as he gets a fair trial, I'll be ok. By "fair trial", I mean him getting treated like any other citizen and not getting special treatment. At the same time, he shouldn't be subjected to harsher than normal treatment either. If he's able to mount a good enough defense without any shenanigans, so be it. That's how things work. I would accept that and move on. I might not like it, but I wouldn't start rioting or accuse them of being deep state plants or some other nonsense.

But I hope he's not able to mount a good defense, and that he is treated like any other citizen. I accept that for him "behind bars" doesn't mean a standard prison with the rest of society. As long as he's not out playing golf and basically looses his freedom and isn't detained at one of his properties, I'll be satisfied.

I also think the former president and "without any shenanigans" is as likely to happen as DeSantis taking his family to Disney World over the weekend for a much needed break from the campaign trail.

 

[Roller]

I agree, but as Sol Wachtler, Chief Justice of the NYSSC famously said:

“Any good prosecutor can get a grand jury to indict a ham sandwich.”

Given what’s in the indictment and how much was perpetrated in the open, I doubt it took much prosecutorial persuasion to get the Grand Jury to vote to indict.

 

[fooferdoggie]

Can Trump plead temporary insanity and dodge the charges? If he could, I’d think he’d do it.

can't say temporary as its still ongoing.

 

[Huntn]

I am assuming you mean which political team and not Jews/Nazi’s.

My team is impotent. I am more Libertarian at heart. I just want government out of my life as much as possible.

I think people should be able to do what they want in their own homes without the government being involved. This includes who they want to have sex with or what substances they want to put in their bodies.

I think the government’s job is to provide us with a safe environment, one they are failing in many locations, and reasonable regulations.

I think we should only spend what we take in and the tax code should be fair to all. But all need to contribute, even if it just a little.

This is just a short summary, but should give you the idea.

I accept this although most of your statements in this forum seems to support today’s Republican Party which is a direct threat to your liberty. So I’m a bit confused, Maybe you have been critical, but off hand I don’t remember a single critical post from you regarding any Republicans or The Head Liar.

And as far as teams, I was serious when I spoke of Nazism, this is the fascist path the Republican Party is on, cheat to win, lie their asses off, undermine the democratic process to continue to hold power, attempt to convert us into a Christian theocracy. This is the primary threat to your liberty.

These people have broken bad, they're a direct threat to our democracy, but mostly what I hear from you is inaccurate, misleading, equivalence arguments while mostly you prefer to prop up Republicans, and condemn liberal ideas. What it makes me think if you actually don’t support Republicans, is that you find that the Democratic/liberal positions are a bigger threat to your liberty? That is completely perplexing.

Please, you want to be free to do what you want in your own house? Ask the LGBTQ sector about that. How about you don’t like the perceived larger tax bill that liberals would hand you so you are willing to sleep with the Devil?

Keep in mind this fact. The GOP has been on a mindless tax cutting crusade for the wealthy since the 1970s and we are now sinking in a mountain of National debt because of it. What do we hear? Elect us and we’ll cut your taxes. Oh yeah you’ll get your $100 refund while the wealthy get millions.

Never mind everything in this country that requires money is deteriorating while the wealthy steadily are getting wealthier. Schools, infrastructure, the cost of higher education is skyrocketing, medical costs, pensions gone, and look at larger and larger number of average citizens who are mostly struggling. This is the GOP vision, that is what we are suffering under. My guess is somehow you‘ll be blaming liberals.

 

[Eric]

As long as he gets a fair trial, I'll be ok. By "fair trial", I mean him getting treated like any other citizen and not getting special treatment. At the same time, he shouldn't be subjected to harsher than normal treatment either. If he's able to mount a good enough defense without any shenanigans, so be it. That's how things work. I would accept that and move on. I might not like it, but I wouldn't start rioting or accuse them of being deep state plants or some other nonsense.

But I hope he's not able to mount a good defense, and that he is treated like any other citizen. I accept that for him "behind bars" doesn't mean a standard prison with the rest of society. As long as he's not out playing golf and basically looses his freedom and isn't detained at one of his properties, I'll be satisfied.

I also think the former president and "without any shenanigans" is as likely to happen as DeSantis taking his family to Disney World over the weekend for a much needed break from the campaign trail.

In the end I think these judges, whether appointed by Trump or Obama, will make or break anything for the accused. We can point to little things here and there but I don't think they have a specific agenda or anything other than just doing their jobs.

 

[Huntn]

The contingency planning for a Trump loss in 2020 was already in motion months before the election with Trump going to claim that it was stolen. Trump was told by his VP, his Attorney General, his campaign chairman, etc. that he lost. They even hired two outside firms to uncover fraud and they came back empty. He also lost dozens of court motions due to lack of evidence as well as every recount. The preponderance of evidence is therefore that he knew he lost. Anyhow, whether he believed he lost or not, it was illegal to attempt to conspire with Pence to delay or prevent the counting of electoral votes.

All the evidence is that The Head Liar was planning on saying the election was stolen in advance because he knew his minions would buy it, and his co-conspirators which includes much of the GOP would back the story. The man is mentally illl, moronic and ignorant, but he does have one huge talent, playing STUPID and encouraging like minded immoral assholes to join in in his confidence game to not only defraud the nation, but to tear down The United States of America, turning the Federal Govt into a criminal enterprise if we allow him to do so.

 

[Huntn]

As long as he gets a fair trial, I'll be ok. By "fair trial", I mean him getting treated like any other citizen and not getting special treatment. At the same time, he shouldn't be subjected to harsher than normal treatment either. If he's able to mount a good enough defense without any shenanigans, so be it. That's how things work. I would accept that and move on. I might not like it, but I wouldn't start rioting or accuse them of being deep state plants or some other nonsense.

But I hope he's not able to mount a good defense, and that he is treated like any other citizen. I accept that for him "behind bars" doesn't mean a standard prison with the rest of society. As long as he's not out playing golf and basically looses his freedom and isn't detained at one of his properties, I'll be satisfied.

I also think the former president and "without any shenanigans" is as likely to happen as DeSantis taking his family to Disney World over the weekend for a much needed break from the campaign trail.

The threat here is he is like Godzilla. All it takes is one MAGA type to find their way onto the jury doing Satan’s work and the jury is hung, and it’s likely that Trump will stomp all over America. After that there is one hope, that enough states tell him to FUCK OFF, and he is not elected, or if he is installed as POTUS DICTATOR a second time, don’t be surprised if the USA ceases to exist as the USA. Some bad shit will happen and we’ll have front role seats to this horrid extravaganza.

 

[rdrr]

I agree, but as Sol Wachtler, Chief Justice of the NYSSC famously said:

“Any good prosecutor can get a grand jury to indict a ham sandwich.”

By your your responds, I am assuming that you don't think there is a case with the evidence provided. Yet you will take the "connect the dots" theory on Hunter Biden somehow involves Joe Biden evidence.

I think you have blinders on or your view has been eschewed by the rightwing propaganda machine.

 

[Eric]

I agree, but as Sol Wachtler, Chief Justice of the NYSSC famously said:

“Any good prosecutor can get a grand jury to indict a ham sandwich.”

They also get their convictions. It's funny how these different prosecutors (NY, GA and DOJ) are the only one's to blame. Not Trump and his actions, no, only those prosecuting him and the dozens of others on these grand juries.

You have to wonder how this plays out when Fox News meets every morning "Another prosecutor!? Okay then, let's attack this one too I guess" all while continuing to defend Trump.

 

[rdrr]

They also get their convictions. It's funny how these different prosecutors (NY, GA and DOJ) are the only one's to blame. Not Trump and his actions, no, only those prosecuting him and the dozens of others on these grand juries.

You have to wonder how this plays out when Fox News meets every morning "Another prosecutor!? Okay then, let's attack this one, too I guess" all while continuing to defend Trump.

100%

This the mentality of "Everyone else is wrong, Trump is the only one who is right!"

This from the guy who cannot form a sentence, and it is very questionable if he ever graduated from the schools he said he did.

 

[Eric]

100%

This the mentality of "Everyone else is wrong, Trump is the only one who is right!"

This from the guy who cannot form a sentence, and it is very questionable if he ever graduated from the schools he said he did.

He's the Republican messiah so there's that. Makes you wonder if Jesus was really just some narcissistic nutbag with a huge ego and a bunch of mindless ignorant followers, makes you think.