Today’s Shooting (an ongoing topic)

[Herdfan]

One way would be to simply make it so these weapons of mass death aren't available to civilians for any reason.

Do you really think making AR's unavailable would stop this? That someone intent on doing something like this won't just use a pistol or find some other means?

I have said this before, but if I were planning a mass shooting event like this (I AM NOT) at a school or workplace, an AR would not be my first choice. Or second or third.

 

[Eric]

Do you really think making AR's unavailable would stop this?

It would sure make it a lot more difficult. It has one job, shoot as many people as quickly and easy as possible. Yes, other weapons can kill but why make it THIS easy? Even if the fact that someone takes a few seconds longer could mean the difference of several lives.

You all need to stop protecting these weapons and start thinking about thier victims. Come on man, be pro-life, it's your thing.

 

[Herdfan]

It would sure make it a lot more difficult. It has one job, shoot as many people as quickly and easy as possible. Yes, other weapons can kill but why make it THIS easy?

That is where we disagree. I think pistols would make it easier to kill as many people as possible. An AR has a longer range for sure, but it is also harder to control in a tight environment. You can talk capacity, but I can order pistol mags with 30-40 rounds as well. And I can also get much deadlier ammo such as SXT's or FTX's for a pistol. Less energy, but more internal damage from the projectile.

Also much easier to conceal a pistol. Or multiple pistols.

 

[Eric]

That is where we disagree. I think pistols would make it easier to kill as many people as possible.

Yes, we disagree and it's a ridiculous comparison.

 

[GermanSuplex]

Do you really think making AR's unavailable would stop this? That someone intent on doing something like this won't just use a pistol or find some other means?

Seems to work literally everywhere else guns aren’t both worshipped and treated as essential as oxygen.

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

Seems to work literally everywhere else guns aren’t both worshipped and treated as essential as oxygen.

Reminds me of a famous Jim Jefferies bit about when guns were banned in Australia after a large massacre. “After the massacre the government said ‘That’s it! No more guns!’ and we all went ‘Alright then, that seems fair enough.’ Since then there hasn’t been one massacre. I don’t know how or why. Could just be a coincidence.”

 

[GermanSuplex]

Reminds me of a famous Jim Jefferies bit about when guns were banned in Australia after a large massacre. “After the massacre the government said ‘That’s it! No more guns!’ and we all went ‘Alright then, that seems fair enough.’ Since then there hasn’t been one massacre. I don’t know how or why. Could just be a coincidence.”

Their healthcare is good too, probably has nothing to do with it.

I think the answer of more guns, fewer restrictions, and lots of talking about mental health while doing absolutely nothing about it is a much more reasonable approach.

Or, complete resignation at the very least, since we apparently “can’t do anything about it.”

 

[Roller]

Seems to work literally everywhere else guns aren’t both worshipped and treated as essential as oxygen.

Exactly. Why are these events so rare in other Western countries compared to the U.S.? Do they have fewer people who want to kill multiple people? More effective policing? Superior mental healthcare? The common denominator is their restricted access to guns. JD said "(school shootings are) a fact of life." Really? I wonder how he'd feel if one of his kids was killed or injured by gunfire at school.

 

[MEJHarrison]

The only way I can deal with this is by realizing that someday the majority of the voting public and the majority of the politicians will have grown up participating in active shooter drills, or worse, watching friends die. And they're not going to want their children to suffer through the same thing. If this is still a problem then, I could easily see them changing the right to bear arms to the right to bare arms. They will understand that the price for our rights as they are today is too high a price to pay. We're letting children die so we can keep our metal penises.

For what it's worth, I'm not necessarily in favor of removing ALL guns. But if the other side won't even sit down to talk about it, then f- them. If the gun-owning Americans out there refuse to do something about this, then they don't deserve to be gun-owning Americans. If all they're going to offer up is thoughts, prayers, finger-pointing and nonsense about the most effective weapon for murdering children, they should have their toys taken away until they can grow up and accept that there's a real problem out there and guns are the common denominator.

 

[Eric]

Exactly. Why are these events so rare in other Western countries compared to the U.S.? Do they have fewer people who want to kill multiple people? More effective policing? Superior mental healthcare? The common denominator is their restricted access to guns. JD said "(school shootings are) a fact of life." Really? I wonder how he'd feel if one of his kids was killed or injured by gunfire at school.

They treat it a lot like healthcare, refusing to acknowledge how well it works in other countries. We're just not happy unless these shooters have the best possible weapons to carry out their mass shootings the same way we celebrate a healthcare system that is the leading cause of bankruptcy in America.

 

[Herdfan]

Yes, we disagree and it's a ridiculous comparison.

Please explain why it is a ridiculous comparison.

For what it's worth, I'm not necessarily in favor of removing ALL guns. But if the other side won't even sit down to talk about it, then f- them.

I will talk about it. But to get me to the table, the government has to get serious, I mean really serious about putting away criminals who use guns in crimes. I will not be disarmed while the criminals are not and I don't think our government (Fed, State or Local)) has the stones or ability to do that.

They treat it a lot like healthcare, refusing to acknowledge how well it works in other countries.

Because I have seen how the VA and Medicare work. Both are horrible. Maybe other countries have better governments.

 

[Eric]

Because I have seen how the VA and Medicare work. Both are horrible. Maybe other countries have better governments.

Yes, they are far better. Every time we try to socialize it to make it as efficient as those other countries Republicans butcher it down to nothing, all to keep it as a for profit system. The VA and Medicare are perfect examples of a shitty system, we can agree on that. Now take the capitalism out of it like these "other countries" you are praising have.

 

[MEJHarrison]

I will talk about it. But to get me to the table, the government has to get serious, I mean really serious about putting away criminals who use guns in crimes.

That's not how I define "willing to sit down and talk about it". In fact, you're not willing to sit down and talk until some agenda of yours is satisfied first. Simplifying that equation, you're not willing to sit down and talk. That might change someday, but not today. Saying "I will talk about it" carries little weight when you clarify that you're not actually willing to talk about it.

 

[Eric]

I will talk about it. But to get me to the table, the government has to get serious, I mean really serious about putting away criminals who use guns in crimes.

No you won't and we all know it, not sure why you bother acting like something is up for discussion when that is clearly not the case.

I will not be disarmed while the criminals are not and I don't think our government (Fed, State or Local)) has the stones or ability to do that.

Thank you for making our point in this thread, we're talking about an assault rifle and you use the same old tired ass Republican talking point "I will not be disarmed". Even if there were legislation around these weapons you all can still keep your other 50 guns or whatever the hell you have stashed around your trailer.

 

[GermanSuplex]

I want white-collar criminals prosecuted as fervently as street crimes are. That doesn’t mean I can talk about gun control. If you’re worried about criminals who use guns in crime, then that should be part of the discussion.

Nobody is coming for your guns, that’s a straw man. That’s what coming to the table is for.

Sadly, I agree it will take some tragedy that hits too close to home for someone before anyone does anything about it. That’s generally how these changes come, god forbid we get out ahead of it.

 

[Herdfan]

That's not how I define "willing to sit down and talk about it". In fact, you're not willing to sit down and talk until some agenda of yours is satisfied first. Simplifying that equation, you're not willing to sit down and talk. That might change someday, but not today. Saying "I will talk about it" carries little weight when you clarify that you're not actually willing to talk about it.

It's more than most pro 2A people are willing to do. It might not be enough for you, but I think it is a start.

Why if I might ask are you unwilling to disarm criminals first? Or actually punish them for gun crimes?

Yes, they are far better. Every time we try to socialize it to make it as efficient as those other countries Republicans butcher it down to nothing, all to keep it as a for profit system. The VA and Medicare are perfect examples of a shitty system, we can agree on that. Now take the capitalism out of it like these "other countries" you are praising have.

Absolutely. I think I have told this story before, but when my dad was in an assisted living facility, there was a Medicare provider who came to make sure everyone had what they needed. "Needed" is a loose term. Anyway, they told him he could have a wheelchair and Medicare would pay for it. So he said sure. He got it and used it for the 16 months he was there. After he passed I was looking through some of his Medicare paperwork and saw that he had been renting that wheelchair for $40/mo. For 16 months. That is $640 that Medicare paid for a $300 wheelchair. Had he not passed, they would have kept on paying it. No one wanted it back. So after mom passed, it was sold in her estate sale.

That is my money, your money and everyone else's money that was absolutely wasted because of these for profit Medicare providers. So even if it means we don't pay less for this waste, it does mean someone else isn't getting the care they need because these companies are exploiting the rules. Let's stop that first.

 

[Eric]

It's more than most pro 2A people are willing to do. It might not be enough for you, but I think it is a start.

Why if I might ask are you unwilling to disarm criminals first? Or actually punish them for gun crimes?

Sure, as soon as you tell me why you're defending a felon for president. I'll start taking the law seriously as soon as you do, any credibility Republicans had about upholding it is long gone. You either support the law or you don't, the cherry picking is getting old.

Absolutely. I think I have told this story before, but when my dad was in an assisted living facility, there was a Medicare provider who came to make sure everyone had what they needed. "Needed" is a loose term. Anyway, they told him he could have a wheelchair and Medicare would pay for it. So he said sure. He got it and used it for the 16 months he was there. After he passed I was looking through some of his Medicare paperwork and saw that he had been renting that wheelchair for $40/mo. For 16 months. That is $640 that Medicare paid for a $300 wheelchair. Had he not passed, they would have kept on paying it. No one wanted it back. So after mom passed, it was sold in her estate sale.

That is my money, your money and everyone else's money that was absolutely wasted because of these for profit Medicare providers. So even if it means we don't pay less for this waste, it does mean someone else isn't getting the care they need because these companies are exploiting the rules. Let's stop that first.

What you are describing is no different than insurance companies gouging those who need their services the most, whether it's government or private, the goal is profit and those making those wheelchairs are the biggest beneficiary of a Conservative policy. Congratulations, you're defending the same people padding their pockets with your hard earned money. Both of my parents have faced the same thing, as likely we will too.

Socialized medicine is not perfect but it covers everything that is needed, if they want enhanced care they can pay more for it. This is how it should be as a human right, as long as someone is making money, it will always be this way.

 

[Herdfan]

Sure, as soon as you tell me why you're defending a felon for president.

Because I believe these are bogus charges. As do a lot of people.

When all is said and done and all the appeals are over, and IF he is still a convicted felon, then we can talk.

But when you have the judge who is presiding over the trial and who's daughter's company (she is President, not some lowly employee) is being paid by Trump's opponent in a Presidential race ........well that is some banana republic level stuff right there. And you expect people to believe everything is above board and fine, nope.

 

[fooferdoggie]

Because I believe these are bogus charges. As do a lot of people.

When all is said and done and all the appeals are over, and IF he is still a convicted felon, then we can talk.

But when you have the judge who is presiding over the trial and who's daughter's company (she is President, not some lowly employee) is being paid by Trump's opponent in a Presidential race ........well that is some banana republic level stuff right there. And you expect people to believe everything is above board and fine, nope.

yet have said much about the SCJ and the bribes going on? I just think your in denial as usual. trump supporters are in constant denial. myself I think because you have seen Trump do this you think other judges are doing this. but I think most judges have far more integrity. if it was a sham why did Trump's great lawyers not present a case? I mean if he is innocent he should have a case right? so if the SCJ's let him off would that tell you he is not guilty when we know that corruption and bribes are rampant?

 

[MEJHarrison]

Why if I might ask are you unwilling to disarm criminals first? Or actually punish them for gun crimes?

First? What the hell kind of option is that? Humans are complex enough to handle more than a single issue at once.

Also, if I did have to order them (which is absurd), how on earth could anyone say that it's more important to disarm criminals than to put an end to children being slaughtered?

And where did I ever suggest criminals shouldn't be punished for their gun crimes?

Just so we're on the same page, I'm talking about school shootings. Not about criminals with guns, legal gun owners, hunters, fishermen, people shooting in the Olympics or Olympia beer. I'm talking about kids being killed. It's a problem. They probably don't tell you that on the news you watch, but it's out of control and something needs to be done. That's going to require gun owners to buy a set a balls and be willing to do something about the problem and stop screaming about people taking their guns. Your side has been so programmed by the NRA you don't even realize how dumb you look always jumping to "they want to take my guns". You're the only side that ever brings that up. Instead of working with us to make guns safer, your side fights tooth and nail to resist the slightest changes. Honestly it mystifies me that any responsible gun owner isn't in favor of common sense changes to some gaping holes in our guns laws. Your side should be screaming the loudest about irresponsible gun owners, yet you do everything in your power to keep them armed and with as little oversight as possible. It makes no sense to me.

I will give you credit for being willing to talk. As you correctly pointed out, that's more than most gun people will do. But you lose that credit for placing restrictions on when that conversation can happen. You lose that credit for implying that there are more important issues to worry about than children getting killed in school. You lose that credit for not being willing to do something now without any strings attached.

We shouldn't be arguing about where "children getting gunned down at school" falls on the list of important societal issues. If it helps convey how horror struck dead children make us, think of them as over-developed fetuses who need to be saved at any cost. I'll be doing what I can to send people to Washington who think the way I do. That NOW is the time to do something.