M4 Mac Announcements

[theorist9]

That’s actually not bad? Try build a desktop based around a 4070 with 16 core cpu for less than 2 grand?

As I said, 4070 desktops seem to go for around $1400. [At least in the US.] Yeah, this one (from Dell's Alienware line) is discounted, but they're always discounted (MSRP's on PC's are essentially a fiction):

Here's one with a 4070 Super (from US retailer Best Buy) for $100 more. Yes, it says it's a "Black Friday Deal", but you can always find deals like this:

A similar version is available for the same price on AZ, but with a larger SSD and less RAM:

Plus if someone is just concerned about gaming, and doesn't mind investing the time, this video shows how to build an upgradeable gaming PC with a 6-core Ryzen 5 7600 CPU (which may be all the cores you need for mid-range gaming), an RX 7800 XT GPU (half-way between a 4070 and 4070 Super, according to a 12-game framerate average at 1440p on Hardware Unboxed), 32 GB 6400 DDR, and 1 TB SSD, for $1100:



Alternately, for $1500, you could do a build with an RX 7900 XT GPU (close in performance to a 4080 Super) and 8-core Ryzen 7700X:


Obviously none of these is anywhere near as nice a general-purpose computer as as an M4 Max Studio will be, but the question at hand was whether, for someone whose primary interest is gaming, we can see the same thing at the midrange as we now have at the entry level, where an M4 Mini's hardware provides as good or better price/performance for gaming than a PC. And the answer is that, for Apple to get close, they need the GPU in their upper-end Mn Pro* to equal a midrange NVIDIA desktop GPU, and we're not there yet.

*M4 Mini with upper-end Pro chip, 24 GB RAM, 512 GB storage, $1480 with educational pricing; that would about equal a 4070 desktop in price, though with less RAM and storage. But I think that would be close enough, b/c no one expects Apple to actually equal comparably-equipped PC prices, since they are much nicer computers.

 

[throAU]

Also. You’ll be dealing with pc hardware drivers written by the lowest bidder.

As per above, PCs and Macs aren’t directly comparablea anyway. Suddenly we’re talking about gaming being the primary purpose and that’s just not what a Mac customer is aiming at.

If you want video editing performance there is nothing faster, 4090 included.

If you want large VRAM greater than 24 gigs expect to pay mid 4 to 5 figures for a pc GPU.

Plus, you’re dealing with windows again.

I just spent 3x the cost of a pc laptop on my m4 max to avoid windows entirely, and while the price stings, as someone who’s day job includes maintaining a corporate windows fleet through SCCM, I fully feel it to be worth it.

 

[throAU]

So, maybe of interest.... baseline m4 mini game performance:




its actually really a lot better than I expected! This is the Mac baseline for game performance in 2024! Not bad!

 

[dada_dave]

My current favorite point of comparison with Apple is System76. They are a premium computer maker, use good components, are primarily Linux/Unix, have a different, but still nice aesthetic, etc ...

The Thelio Prime is probably the best analog to the Studio:

Thelio Prime Custom

Thelio Prime runs fast and leaves a small footprint. Small form factor, big flair for production value, miniscule fan noise.

system76.com

Configure it similarly to the Max Studio with a 9900X, 4060ti, 500GB hard drive, 32GB RAM, and you get about $2100. That would perform very similarly to a hypothetical binned $2000 Studio M4 Max with advantages/disadvantages to each. The Max would have far better single core performance and much better workstation graphics performance. They should have roughly equivalent embarrassingly parallel CPU throughput overall while the 4060ti has much better consumer graphics performance (again binned Max) with the chassis having better upgradeability/repairability. The Thelio's primary hard drive upgrades are expensive - though the upgraded SSDs are PCIe 5 and still not as bad as Apple's upgrade prices. The Studio's combined CPU/GPU's upgrade for $200 is better than the Thelio's options IMO. As small as the Thelio Prime is, the Studio is still much smaller. The Studio Max has higher maximum capacity RAM (and better RAM/bandwidth), but lower internal hard drive space. While I couldn't say for sure, I would strongly suspect the Studio is quieter and definitely uses less power.

So yes I would've like to see 20% more on the GPU front especially as the 5000 series Nvidia GPUs will be out soon as will RDNA 4 (of course following on their heels will be M5, but we don't know when the next desktop upgrades will be and desktop M4 is much more likely to be contemporaneous with the upcoming graphics cards). But Apple is doing better than it has in a long time. If we had to choose only one Apple chip to slant slightly towards gaming, my preference would be the Pro chip as it is at that $1400/$2000 (desktop/laptop) starting price tier and while Apple will never be the price conscious gaming option, a 20% boost here, in my opinion would be the greatest benefit opportunity. The base M4, especially at the Mini's price point, is already pretty damn good as multiple reviewers have noted.

The biggest issue with Apple's pricing is now definitely SSD upgrades. The RAM still hurts, but with the increase in base RAM shouldn't bas as big a factor for most users (16GB on M4, 24GB on Pro, and 36GB on Max should be enough for 90%+ of users buying those respective machines, especially base and Pro and again those RAM upgrades get you better VRAM which, as aforementioned, is extremely expensive the moment you get past 24GB on the PC side). The SSD upgrade prices though ... oof.

 

[theorist9]

Suddenly we’re talking about gaming being the primary purpose and that’s just not what a Mac customer is aiming at.

You challenged me on whether one could build a 4070 desktop with a 16-core CPU for <$2k. It sounds like your're trying to just tank the subject to avoid acknowledging that I showed you can. And not just build one, but buy fully-assembled PCs, including from a name-brand (Alienware).

And there's nothing sudden about it. Many on this Apple subforum have long been curious whether AS Macs will eventually be able to provide enough GPU performance to compete with similarly-priced PC gaming desktops. Since they've finally acheived that at the entry level, with the M4 Mini, it becomes interesting to ask how close they currently are at the midrange. This is a legitimate subject of conversation.

Considering this more focused question does not in any way interfere with our ability to also consider the broader question of how Macs perform for general use. I think we can walk and chew gum at the same time!

Though maybe there should be a separate thread for this, like there was for the M2:

Thread 'M2 Pro/Max/Ultra Gaming Benchmarks.'

Jan 25, 2023

Andrew Tsai has released a video featuring the first available gaming benchmarks for the M2 Pro and M2 Max MacBook Pros. The Pro is a 14-inch model, while the Max is a 16-inch. Presumably, the 16-inch is running at a slightly higher clock, as demonstrated in Geekbench. He compares them to an M2 MacBook Air and a 16-inch M1 Max MacBook Pro.



The short version: the M2 is an evolutionary advance. GPU cores scale almost linearly in games, and the same can be said for CPU-bound titles. If you plan to use your M2 Mac for gaming, then skip the base M2, and go for at least the...

• Colstan
• Replies: 21
• Forum: Gaming Forum

• 

 

[throAU]

You challenged me on whether one could build a 4070 desktop with a 16-core CPU for <$2k

It had no PSU or case


Main point was that it was close and the mini isn’t such an overpriced deal as some were perhaps implying.

Sure the pc wins in gaming performance. It’s slaughtered in video, power consumption, lack of time to build and troubleshoot etc.

 

[theorist9]

It had no PSU or case....

....the pc [is] slaughtered in... time to build and troubleshoot etc.

All three of the $1400-$1500 4070-based PC's I presented were pre-built machines (so there's no "time to build and troubleshoot"), and of course came with a PSU and a case.

Main point was that it was close and the mini isn’t such an overpriced deal as some were perhaps implying.

The Mini wasn't the subject of our interchange. It was entirely about this:

 

[exoticspice1]

Apple themselves is promoting gaming and says it multiple times on their press releases/website.

Any M4 Mac comparison with a compariable PC should be part of this thread, IMO.

If you want an efficiency gaming/workstation in the PC space then you have no other choice but to pick AMD for the CPU/Nvidia for the GPU currenntly.
You can power limit the RTX 40 series and get really good perf/w

 

[Joelist]

Getting used to my Space Black MBP 14 M4Pro 24GB RAM 1TB storage. Nice keyboard, display good and I find the smaller size from my old MBP16 not to be an issue. M4Pro definitely has a spring in its step. And in the smaller package it makes it rather more portable.

 

[dada_dave]

Apple themselves is promoting gaming and says it multiple times on their press releases/website.

Any M4 Mac comparison with a compariable PC should be part of this thread, IMO.

If you want an efficiency gaming/workstation in the PC space then you have no other choice but to pick AMD for the CPU/Nvidia for the GPU currenntly.
You can power limit the RTX 40 series and get really good perf/w

Power limited Nvidia GPUs have very similar characteristics to Apple GPUs (similar enough minus differences in TBDR, drivers, etc ...) - the best examples are the 4000 MaxQ GPUs, obviously 165W is still well beyond what Apple GPUs pull

 

[dada_dave]

Apple M4 Pro analysis - Extremely fast, but not as efficient

Apple has presented its new MacBook Pro models featuring the new M4 processor generation and we have taken a look at the new M4 Pro SoC. Aside from its pure performance, we are interested in how efficient it is. Has Apple managed to further extend its lead over Qualcomm, AMD and Intel?

www.notebookcheck.net

M4 Pro analysis. Usual caveats that this is the efficiency of the device minus idle power (so my numbers are a little different from Notebook Check's) and CB R24 is only one benchmark. One other thing to note is that I strongly suspect part of the huge increase in power from the M4 Pro, both in ST and MT is due to high amount of RAM tested in the particular configuration (48GB) and much larger memory bandwidth in the M4 Pro relative to the M3. They are planning on testing binned M4 Pro and full (and binned?) M4 Max. Hopefully they will test a base M4 as well.

Anyway, nothing really comes close to the M4 Pro in performance in its weight class and its efficiency is still fantastic, especially when the performance is taken into account. Strix Halo processors with 16 cores might provide a better point of comparison - as might Arrow Lake.

 

[theorist9]

I thought this discussion of gaming on the M4 Mini was very interesting because it talks about the importance of the quality of the port. I.e., even if game developers make native Mac ports available, they may not devote as many resources to keeping them updated for the Mac as they do for the PC. I suppose this will come down to the relative sizes of the markets. See, for instance, his discussion of Baldur's Gate 3 at 12:35, where he says:

"It's great [this port is] here....but this port is not very good. It runs on an older version of Metal...and uses AMD FSR 1.0 and uses it very poorly. It does not support AMD FSR 2.0 unlike Windows PC which is very annoying."

 

[Altaic]

Found a pic (from techanalye1 on twitter) of the inside of the Mac mini M4 Pro. There's something different about that SSD, and I'm not referring to the shape. A large portion of it is enclosed in an EMI shielding can, which is unlike prior removable SSDs in the Mac Studio M1/M2 Ultra and Mac mini M4. Pretty curious what's going on there. Anyone have any guesses? @mr_roboto?

 

[Nycturne]

Found a pic (from techanalye1 on twitter) of the inside of the Mac mini M4 Pro. There's something different about that SSD, and I'm not referring to the shape. A large portion of it is enclosed in an EMI shielding can, which is unlike prior removable SSDs in the Mac Studio M1/M2 Ultra and Mac mini M4. Pretty curious what's going on there. Anyone have any guesses? @mr_roboto?

View attachment 32722

I assume you are talking about the board on the far left here? I'm not sure this is EMI shielding, but rather an insulating shield. Could be wrong.

 

[Altaic]

I assume you are talking about the board on the far left here? I'm not sure this is EMI shielding, but rather an insulating shield. Could be wrong.

Yeah, the far left is the SSD module.

What would an insulating shield be temperature stabilizing at the far end of the module? The fact that it’s at the far end from the card edge connector is a head scratcher to me.

I’m thinking it’s an EMI shield, and there’s a board-to-board connector on the other side doing something mysterious.

Edit: Maybe no board-to-board connector. Still mysterious.

Edit: Just realized the M4 SSD module has a can as well. So maybe not so mysterious. Still curious, though.

Edit: Teardown videos do not show a can on the M4 SSD module

 

[KingOfPain]

Given the potential of tariffs, I'm wondering if I should still wait for a Mac Studio with M4 Max or rather get a Mac mini with M4 Pro now.
Currently, there are just two reasons for not ordering yet:

• I read in at least two reviews that the active cooling in the Mac mini can get audibly loud as in "it can be heard across the room".
  I'm somewhat sensible to the higher pitch sounds that a smaller fan would make, so that might be a problem for me. Interestingly enough, I also saw a Youtube video by someone, who returned the first Mac Studio model because it was too loud, but he said that the Mac mini sound wouldn't really register for him. The main question here would what workload is necessary for the Mac mini cooling to become audible.
• Some reviews mention that the M4 Pro cannot handle current native games at higher quality settings, at least not at a decent frame rate.
  I'm not 100% sure if I'm ever going to play these games or not, but given the fact that the GPU cannot be upgraded, I'm not sure if I should wait for the M4 Max, which should have roughly twice the performance.

Otherwise, the new Mac mini has eliminated a lot of my criticisms that I had with previous models (like lacking connectors at the front). The CPU cores are more than powerful enough for the tasks I might throw at them. My only remaining issues are GPU performance (although according to GB6 it should be roughly 3.3 times faster than my current M1) and potential noise.

 

[Nycturne]

Yeah, the far left is the SSD module.

What would an insulating shield be temperature stabilizing at the far end of the module? The fact that it’s at the far end from the card edge connector is a head scratcher to me.

I’m thinking it’s an EMI shield, and there’s a board-to-board connector on the other side doing something mysterious.

I’m thinking electrical insulation, not thermal. Apple crams a lot of parts up against a metal case, and the last thing you want is either accidental shorts or other unintended effects from being in close proximity to another conductor. The EMI shields I’ve worked with are metallic, not plastic, as they are trying to capture the unwanted EM energy and divert it around the component. For example, the EMI shield in the PS2 around the CPU is mounted with screws that are part of the PCB’s ground plane. This is just sticker to my eyes, so it looks like isolation. Without a path to something like ground, I’m not convinced there’d be much EM protection, even if there’s a metallic layer in the sticker.

Apple has been pretty thorough when it comes to their isolation since switching to aluminum cases.

 

[Altaic]

The EMI shields I’ve worked with are metallic, not plastic, as they are trying to capture the unwanted EM energy and divert it around the component. For example, the EMI shield in the PS2 around the CPU is mounted with screws that are part of the PCB’s ground plane. This is just sticker to my eyes, so it looks like isolation.

If you look closely, there’s a metal can soldered to the SSD module PCB. All the metal cans in there are topped with adhesive-lined conductive polymer film, as can be seen in teardown videos.

 

[mr_roboto]

Found a pic (from techanalye1 on twitter) of the inside of the Mac mini M4 Pro. There's something different about that SSD, and I'm not referring to the shape. A large portion of it is enclosed in an EMI shielding can, which is unlike prior removable SSDs in the Mac Studio M1/M2 Ultra and Mac mini M4. Pretty curious what's going on there. Anyone have any guesses? @mr_roboto?

Edit: Just realized the M4 SSD module has a can as well. So maybe not so mysterious. Still curious, though.

Edit: Teardown videos do not show a can on the M4 SSD module

I think Mac Pro and even old Intel iMac Pro modules have EMI shielding too.

I'm honestly unsure why the modules have EMI shields (sometimes?) when the same flash devices soldered directly to other Macs' logic boards usually do not. See for example the image of the 14" M4 Pro/Max logic board on this Apple self service repair page:

MacBook Pro (14-inch, M4 Pro or M4 Max, 2024) Logic Board - Apple Support

Repair procedure with removal and reassembly steps

support.apple.com

Four locations for flash memory packages (two under each fan, only half are populated here, and there's probably four more locations on the reverse side of the board). No EMI can in sight.

 

[theorist9]

I read in at least two reviews that the active cooling in the Mac mini can get audibly loud as in "it can be heard across the room".

ArtIsRight, who is not given to hyperbole, said that, under heavy load, the M4 Mini is quiet, but the M4 Pro Mini can get noisy, similar to the 14" and 16" MBP's. And in the comments, he said he was running it in Auto Mode rather than High Power Mode. He added the M2 Studio is relatively quiet.