M4 Mac Announcements

Extreme chip canceled ... again ... supposedly


I mean Hidra does sound like a die designed for more than two die chips, but I dunno man 🤷‍♂️ - also the reasoning seems weird "to focus on the server AI chip" - I would've thought it was the server AI chip? So is the AI chip different or can Apple not make enough to fulfill demand and sell to customers? or is The Information full of it?

Any 3rd party die shots of M4 Max to see what we're dealing with?
 
Extreme chip canceled ... again ... supposedly


I mean Hidra does sound like a die designed for more than two die chips, but I dunno man 🤷‍♂️ - also the reasoning seems weird "to focus on the server AI chip" - I would've thought it was the server AI chip? So is the AI chip different or can Apple not make enough to fulfill demand and sell to customers? or is The Information full of it?

Any 3rd party die shots of M4 Max to see what we're dealing with?
i also don’t understand the broadcom rumor, as if broadcom has anything to bring to the table for such a chip.
 
Apparently it's for the networking infrastructure around the chip:

yeah, but they would just buy IP blocks or chips, like everyone else. It’s not like Broadcom is coming in and providing Apple with some amazing “server chip expertise.”
 
Cross posting from the other place after diving into firmware a bit, and this is what I've got:
Code:
M4 Macs
  Mac16,1   MBP 14” M4
  Mac16,2   iMac 24” M4 (2-port)
  Mac16,3   iMac 24” M4 (4-port)
  Mac16,4   DNE
  Mac16,5   MBP 16” M4 Max (384b & 512b)
  Mac16,6   MBP 14” M4 Max (384b & 512b)
  Mac16,7   MBP 16” M4 Pro
  Mac16,8   MBP 14” M4 Pro
  Mac16,9   Mac Studio M4 Max
  Mac16,10  Mac mini M4
  Mac16,11  Mac mini M4 Pro
  Mac16,12  MBA 13” M4
  Mac16,13  MBA 15” M4

M5 Macs
  Mac17,1   iMac 30” M5
  Mac17,2   iMac 30” M5 Pro

It seems that both of the variants of the M4 Max use the same firmware (perhaps some sort of chop or fusing) and thus do not have different designations. Also, it's likely the M5 and M5 Pro are in a later testing phase, but not others in that lineup.

To be clear, I’m certain about those M4 designations, and the M5 designations are an educated guess.
MacRumors is confirming the MacBook Air designations.

This is interesting. This list, if complete, implies no Ultra M4 but yes to a M4 Max Studio. Fascinating.
 
If the list is complete then I'm going to say that Mac 17,1 and 17,2 are the Ultra Studio and Pro but the Ultra is an M5 generation based on the Hidra die.
So does this summarize the current rumor?:

The previous plan was to use 2xM4 Max for the next Ultra, and also offer a 4xM4 Max "Extreme" chip for the next MP. However, Apple found building a 4x chip too complicated, so now they are going to instead have the 2025 prosumer desktop lineup be: Max Studio: M4 Max; Ultra Studio: M5 Hidra (where the Hidra gets close to the reticle limit); MP Extreme: 2xM5 Hidra.

Or if they go with M5 for the Hidra, will the Ultra and MP not be released until 2026?

I mean Hidra does sound like a die designed for more than two die chips, but I dunno man 🤷‍♂️ - also the reasoning seems weird "to focus on the server AI chip" - I would've thought it was the server AI chip? So is the AI chip different or can Apple not make enough to fulfill demand and sell to customers? or is The Information full of it?
If what I wrote applies, I'd interpret 'focusing on the AI server chip instead of the (4x) Extreme' to mean going with Hidra and 2xHidra, instead of 2xMax and 4xMax, for the Ultra and Extreme, respectively. [Unless I'm misinterpreting the article's language.]
 
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So does this summarize the current rumor?:

The previous plan was to use 2xM4 Max for the next Ultra, and also offer a 4xM4 Max "Extreme" chip for the next MP. However, Apple found building a 4x chip too complicated, so now they are going to instead have the 2025 prosumer desktop lineup be: Max Studio: M4 Max; Ultra Studio: M5 Hidra (where the Hidra gets close to the reticle limit); MP Extreme: 2xM5 Hidra.

Or if they go with M5 for the Hidra, will the Ultra and MP not be released until 2026?


If what I wrote applies, I'd interpret 'focusing on the AI server chip instead of the (4x) Extreme' to mean going with Hidra and 2xHidra, instead of 2xMax and 4xMax, for the Ultra and Extreme, respectively. [Unless I'm misinterpreting the article's language.]
To be honest ... I'm not really sure. I would've thought if the Hidra die is real, then if an Extreme was coming it would've been based on multiple Hidra dies, rather than multiple Brava dies (the M4 Max), but how big those Hidra dies are is still unknown. Even if my idea above is right, which it may not be, maybe the Ultra will be 2x Hidras, maybe it is a single large die. Maybe the Extreme would've been 4x Hidras, maybe an Extreme could've been made of 2x Hidras. Maybe there was never an Extreme planned.

At the moment, it doesn't even look like there is an M4 Ultra planned. At least there is no room for one in the current Mac16,x device list. And so far there are only 2 M5 Macs (Mac17,1 and Mac17,2) listed, but that seems unlikely to be the full list unless Mac17 literally is only going to be the Hidra-based devices. So maybe the list is simply incomplete .. even for the M4s? The latter seems unlikely since you'd think we'd have seen evidence of more Mac16s by now. If Hidra is N3P it could easily be released in 2025, N3P is in production now supposedly. Basically I'm saying the Mac17,1 and 17,2 would be coming first for that generation and would be Hidra.

A 3rd party die shot confirming the presence/absence of an interconnect on the M4 Max would go a long way to confirming if an M4 Ultra even exists.
 
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A 3rd party die shot confirming the presence/absence of an interconnect on the M4 Max would go a long way to confirming if an M4 Ultra even exists.
Did 3rd-party die shots of the previous Max chips confirm the interconnect's presence on the M1 & M2, and its absence on the M3? I.e., can you tell this from these die shots?
 
Did 3rd-party die shots of the previous Max chips confirm the interconnect's presence on the M1 & M2, and its absence on the M3? I.e., can you tell this from these die shots?
Yes. The interconnects could be seen on the M1 and M2 Max and their absence on the M3 Max spurred a whole lot of speculation about the M3 Ultra - everything from simply leaving the interconnect off the Maxes destined for laptops to novel packaging for the Ultra. Of course now we know it was because there was no M3 Ultra.
 
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Yes. The interconnects could be seen on the M1 and M2 Max and their absence on the M3 Max spurred a whole lot of speculation about the M3 Ultra - everything from simply leaving the interconnect off the Maxes destined for laptops to novel packaging for the Ultra. Of course now we know it was because there was no M3 Ultra.
Thanks--you've been keeping up with this much better than I have! Do you recall how long (after release) it took them to post 3rd-party shots of the last Max chips? That might tell us about when we'll see a 3rd-party shot of the M4.
 
Thanks--you've been keeping up with this much better than I have! Do you recall how long (after release) it took them to post 3rd-party shots of the last Max chips? That might tell us about when we'll see a 3rd-party shot of the M4.
The last time it was around now, December (@Altaic linked to them in a January forum post but the first twitter link he gave is from December 2023). However, I don’t think we can say for certain since it just probably depends when someone gets around to it. Sometimes people post die shots fast, other times not so much.
 
Maybe the Mac 17,1 and 17,2 aren’t M5 and Apple changes the naming scheme for the high end Macs so people will stop complaining that they’re gonna be obsolete by the time the next iPad Pro comes out.

Or I could be spending too much time at the other place…
 
Maybe the Mac 17,1 and 17,2 aren’t M5 and Apple changes the naming scheme for the high end Macs so people will stop complaining that they’re gonna be obsolete by the time the next iPad Pro comes out.

Or I could be spending too much time at the other place…
While I doubt Apple would name a new generation without something substantial changing, it is possible that 17,1 and 2 could represent unique devices and the next mainstream Macs will be 18. Probably unlikely.
 
Screenshot 2024-12-17 at 2.07.40 PM.png

Full M4 (orange) analysis in the thumbnail above (click to enlarge) based on NotebookCheck CB R24 power and performance data reveals a few interesting insights. But to start with some caveats, unfortunately NotebookCheck did not publish CB R24 power data for the base M4. Using CB R24 performance and CB R23 performance and power data for M4 Pro and M4 Max, I estimated the power for the M4 under CB R24. Further, I subtract idle power for the devices, so my efficiency numbers will differ slightly from NotebookCheck's.

For ST data, we see very similar efficiency numbers for the base M4 as for the base M3. While the M4 does use more power, it also gains a commensurate amount of performance. As the SOC becomes larger however, the power needs go up without any increase in performance and ST efficiency goes down substantially. This likely due to powering the additional fabric, bus, and RAM of the larger SOCs. Using CB R23 power data and comparing to RAM capacity, bus, and bandwidth we do see a big jump when the bus is 256b or larger and the RAM capacity is 48MB or larger, but smaller increases after that.

Screenshot 2024-12-17 at 2.21.38 PM.png


For MT data, the base M4 has a more similar profile to the Snapdragons than previous M3 - manufactured on a better node, but only 4 performance cores and 6 efficiency cores versus 12 performance cores. Still it represents a substantial power increase over the base M3 but with a nearly linear increase in performance such that efficiency is still roughly the same. This increase in power has been noticed with larger fan noise under load for the Mini along with its smaller chassis.

Speaking of linear increases in power and performance, the 12, 14, and 16-core (8P+4E, 10P+4E, 12P+4E) Brava and Brava-chop dies have nearly identical MT efficiency as 2 P cores are added at each step up. Interestingly the 12-core model uses similar power to the old M2 Pro/Max CPU, but with a new node and new architecture, it nets 36% more performance for an increase of 34% in efficiency. The 14-core Pro and 16-core Max stand alone in the current mobile performance landscape. For the Max NotebookCheck had to break out desktop chips or an old overclocked Intel gaming laptop to compare to for performance with the latter in particular only able to match the Max's CPU performance drawing well over 300W even after idle. Arrow Lake and Zen 5 desktops fared little better, scoring around 1800-2400pts and getting less than half the efficiency of the Max chip even after substantial idle draws were subtracted out.

Upcoming Arrow Lake and Strix Halo laptop CPUs should be more efficient than their desktop counterparts, but may not match the M4 Max in performance - in particular for the Strix Halo which will top out at 16 cores, only 50% more than the Strix Point CPU used above. It may have higher clocks (though may also be across two dies), but we can already see the HX 370 plateau at around 1200 with 12 cores. While not true for ST tasks, for MT purposes, all the Zen 5c cores are practically P-cores (the biggest change between "c" and non-"c" cores is that the former are missing the circuitry needed for high clocks). Thus it seems unlikely to that Strix Halo chips will offer enough of a jump in performance to quite match the Max's score. They are much more likely to equal and then exceed the 14-core Pro's performance, but almost certainly at higher power draws - like above 90-110W or so. Arrow Lake laptop chips, even if more efficient than their desktop counterparts will also likely require a large number of cores and high power draws to match the M4 Max's MT performance.


EDIT: the 12-core M4 Pro has the same configuration as the M2 Pro (8+4). Previously I wrote that it had 2 more P-cores in its explanation for its superior performance. It does not. That means it's superior performance at the same power is all down to improved node and architecture.
 
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View attachment 33180

Full M4 (orange) analysis in the thumbnail above (click to enlarge) based on NotebookCheck CB R24 power and performance data reveals a few interesting insights. But to start with some caveats, unfortunately NotebookCheck did not publish CB R24 power data for the base M4. Using CB R24 performance and CB R23 performance and power data for M4 Pro and M4 Max, I estimated the power for the M4 under CB R24. Further, I subtract idle power for the devices, so my efficiency numbers will differ slightly from NotebookCheck's.

For ST data, we see very similar efficiency numbers for the base M4 as for the base M3. While the M4 does use more power, it also gains a commensurate amount of performance. As the SOC becomes larger however, the power needs go up without any increase in performance and ST efficiency goes down substantially. This likely due to powering the additional fabric, bus, and RAM of the larger SOCs. Using CB R23 power data and comparing to RAM capacity, bus, and bandwidth we do see a big jump when the bus is 256b or larger and the RAM capacity is 48MB or larger, but smaller increases after that.

View attachment 33182

For MT data, the base M4 has a more similar profile to the Snapdragons than previous M3 - manufactured on a better node, but only 4 performance cores and 6 efficiency cores versus 12 performance cores. Still it represents a substantial power increase over the base M3 but with a nearly linear increase in performance such that efficiency is still roughly the same. This increase in power has been noticed with larger fan noise under load for the Mini along with its smaller chassis.

Speaking of linear increases in power and performance, the 12, 14, and 16-core (8P+4E, 10P+4E, 12P+4E) Brava and Brava-chop dies have nearly identical MT efficiency as 2 P cores are added at each step up. Interestingly the 12-core model uses similar power to the old M2 Pro/Max CPU, but with a new node and new architecture, it nets 36% more performance for an increase of 34% in efficiency. The 14-core Pro and 16-core Max stand alone in the current mobile performance landscape. For the Max NotebookCheck had to break out desktop chips or an old overclocked Intel gaming laptop to compare to for performance with the latter in particular only able to match the Max's CPU performance drawing well over 300W even after idle. Arrow Lake and Zen 5 desktops fared little better, scoring around 1800-2400pts and getting less than half the efficiency of the Max chip even after substantial idle draws were subtracted out.

Upcoming Arrow Lake and Strix Halo laptop CPUs should be more efficient than their desktop counterparts, but may not match the M4 Max in performance - in particular for the Strix Halo which will top out at 16 cores, only 50% more than the Strix Point CPU used above. It may have higher clocks (though may also be across two dies), but we can already see the HX 370 plateau at around 1200 with 12 cores. While not true for ST tasks, for MT purposes, all the Zen 5c cores are practically P-cores (the biggest change between "c" and non-"c" cores is that the former are missing the circuitry needed for high clocks). Thus it seems unlikely to that Strix Halo chips will offer enough of a jump in performance to quite match the Max's score. They are much more likely to equal and then exceed the 14-core Pro's performance, but almost certainly at higher power draws - like above 90-110W or so. Arrow Lake laptop chips, even if more efficient than their desktop counterparts will also likely require a large number of cores and high power draws to match the M4 Max's MT performance.


EDIT: the 12-core M4 Pro has the same configuration as the M2 Pro (8+4). Previously I wrote that it had 2 more P-cores in its explanation for its superior performance. It does not. That means it's superior performance at the same power is all down to improved node and architecture.
And a second silly mistake of the exact same type as the Edit above because once again I can’t count cores correctly (I must be an LLM), the HX370 has 12 cores which makes the upcoming 16 core Strix Halo 33% bigger not 50%. 🤦‍♂️ Still should be able to hit M4 Pro levels in CB R24, but unless it follows the Desktop chip design on N4X rather than the mobile design on N4P (in which case it’ll use a lot of power), I doubt it’ll hit anywhere close to the Max. The TDP is rumored to be 120W (which means more than that in practice and I’m presuming that’s all usable for the CPU, ie the considerable GPU is separate) which is a fair bit more than the official 54W TDP of Strix Point (HX 370, which actually uses more than 80W 70W at full power*).

*Notebookcheck used a version of the HX 370 that was allowed to be overclocked past the recommended TDP range by AMD to "65W" and "80W" which actually used close to 90W (rightmost AMD HX 370 point in quoted graph) and over 100W (not pictured) respectively for little to no gain in performance. At "54W" TDP (74W) it gets 1166, at "65W" (88W) it gets about 1200, at "80W" (109W) it still only gets 1216. Basically going from AMD's recommended TDP settings of "54W" (74W) to "80W" (109W), the chip burns ~50% more power for only 4% more performance and almost all of that is gained before it hits "65W" 88W. You can see why AMD lists the Strix Point HX 370's max TDP as "54W".
 
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Great work.

This increase in power has been noticed with larger fan noise under load for the Mini along with its smaller chassis.

There's been a lot of discussion about this over at MR, but unfortunately there's too much noise and not enough signal to draw strong conclusions. (Idiots blathering endlessly about should they or shouldn't they but an M4 Pro, because omg what if it's noisy, when they had a TWO MONTH RETURN WINDOW, is a real headscratcher. Same for clueless comments about case size, when that's almost irrelevant compared to fan size, airflow, etc.)

However, there is some indication - not proof, but a suggestion - that Apple may have some sort of manufacturing issue with M4 Pro fan noise. That is, there are people saying that running their M4Ps at high CPU load is really quiet, while others say that it's not (a couple have said, and posted video demonstrating, that it sounded like a very small vacuum cleaner). Obviously these are not controlled conditions, but there were enough reports from reasonable people among all the noisy crap that it started to make me wonder: Is Apple using fans from two different makers? Two different production runs? Is there a problem with the assembly causing some to run inefficiently, or to make extra noise? For example, there is at least some suggestion that some M4Ps are basically silent at 1900RPM, while some are not, which could indicate, well, a few different things.

Does anyone have any info about this?
 
Great work.



There's been a lot of discussion about this over at MR, but unfortunately there's too much noise and not enough signal to draw strong conclusions. (Idiots blathering endlessly about should they or shouldn't they but an M4 Pro, because omg what if it's noisy, when they had a TWO MONTH RETURN WINDOW, is a real headscratcher. Same for clueless comments about case size, when that's almost irrelevant compared to fan size, airflow, etc.)

However, there is some indication - not proof, but a suggestion - that Apple may have some sort of manufacturing issue with M4 Pro fan noise. That is, there are people saying that running their M4Ps at high CPU load is really quiet, while others say that it's not (a couple have said, and posted video demonstrating, that it sounded like a very small vacuum cleaner). Obviously these are not controlled conditions, but there were enough reports from reasonable people among all the noisy crap that it started to make me wonder: Is Apple using fans from two different makers? Two different production runs? Is there a problem with the assembly causing some to run inefficiently, or to make extra noise? For example, there is at least some suggestion that some M4Ps are basically silent at 1900RPM, while some are not, which could indicate, well, a few different things.

Does anyone have any info about this?
Thanks!

I haven’t paid much attention to the Mac forums beyond Apple Silicon at MR, so this is the first time I’ve seen this particular issue. From your description it kind of reminds me of some of the noise complaints about certain models of M1 Studio where some people seemed to get loud ones and others didn’t. I believe most of the complaints were directed at the Max model. The M2 Studio - Max or Ultra - didn’t get as many.

In general the M4 chips seem to use more power across the board though. And I’ve seen several reviewers note concordant increases in fan noise as a result in some models, but the same or actually less fan noise in others, but more throttling. It seems to depend on what Apple decided for that model. Hopefully for the M5/6 Apple can reign power in without sacrificing too much in performance gains - I know some people were unhappy with the M3 Pro’s balance in that regards.

There are also those 3rd party tools to control fan speed. That’s another solution to those bothered by the fan noise (as long as it isn’t coil whine). TG Pro? I think there others too.
 
There's been a lot of discussion about this over at MR, but unfortunately there's too much noise and not enough signal to draw strong conclusions. (Idiots blathering endlessly about should they or shouldn't they but an M4 Pro, because omg what if it's noisy, when they had a TWO MONTH RETURN WINDOW, is a real headscratcher. Same for clueless comments about case size, when that's almost irrelevant compared to fan size, airflow, etc.)
When it comes to noise, case size is critical. With a larger case and attendantly larger heatsinks you can dissipate thermal energy less noisily because you can get higher airflow at lower air velocity. And you can use bigger, slower-moving fans. To give an extreme example: I recall reading that the Intel Mac Pro was very quiet, and its thermal output was quite high.

Also, FWIW, the standard return window is 2 weeks (with the holidays they have until Jan 8, if bought prior to Dec 25). Though, granted, that should still be enough time to assess noise.
 
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