Ron DeSantis: What in the ever loving fuck is wrong with him?

[rdrr]

Same here. But the trade-off needs to be that you can fire bad teachers more easily.

Agreed. However I don't think that the parents are a part of the teachers performance review. Too many helicopter parents with an axe to grind. Parents recourse would be to make a complaint to school administration where they can review if the teacher violated any rules or if the complaint has any merit. The review process including the action taken needs to be transparent though, and cannot be a closed door review session.

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

Same here. But the trade-off needs to be that you can fire bad teachers more easily.

Not disagree with you, but beyond the extreme I wonder what constitutes a bad teacher vs bad parenting. I’m sure in certain parts of the country a scary percentage of parents wouldn’t show up to PTA meetings other than to whine about wokeness, CRT, and masks. And for some inexplicable reason nobody expects showing kids how to be a responsible adult be part of our education system.

 

[Huntn]

Not disagree with you, but beyond the extreme I wonder what constitutes a bad teacher vs bad parenting. I’m sure in certain parts of the country a scary percentage of parents wouldn’t show up to PTA meetings other than to whine about wokeness, CRT, and masks. And for some inexplicable reason nobody expects showing kids how to be a responsible adult be part of our education system.

My understanding is an issue with 2 working parents, in some/many case, the kids are taught basically the bare minimums at home, don’t pee on the floor, don’t throw your food, put some clothes on. Hell even with 1 stay home parent who spends the day playing video games, you might not see much in the way of parenting.

BTW, I give my wife a huge Attagirl because of her devotion to our son when he was growing up. She cherished the opportunity teach and help him develop with social and the skills needed for school while I was working, I never forced her to be a stay home Mom. She has an affinity with children, chose it, and we could afford it. When I met her, she was a child psychology major in college.

And it appears that many parents expect the schools to pick up parenting duties until they want to rush in and protest the “poison liberal” ideas you mentioned. Your torturing my kid with mask wearing!!! OMG you demand vaccinations?? How cruel and I don’t want my baby to become Autistic!!

 

[Yoused]

Same here. But the trade-off needs to be that you can fire bad teachers more easily.

The catch here is: "what is a bad teacher?" This here teacher is filling my kid's head with ideas I disagree with! You want to go down that road? Because, the potholes are deep and plenty.

 

[Herdfan]

The catch here is: "what is a bad teacher?" This here teacher is filling my kid's head with ideas I disagree with! You want to go down that road? Because, the potholes are deep and plenty.

I understand the concern. But there are bad teachers. Lots of objective measures of this in addition to parental feedback.

 

[Alli]

I understand the concern. But there are bad teachers. Lots of objective measures of this in addition to parental feedback.

Unless the parent has been engaged in the learning process with their children, their feedback is usually worth what you pay for it.

 

[fooferdoggie]

DeSantis proving CRT is actually real.​

 

[lizkat]

DeSantis is trying to swing the "woke" pendulum back to somewhere even a lot of Floridians seem unwilling to go. He may discover that taking on policies of post K-12 education is a whole other thing from issuing edicts designed to freak out parents of six and seven year old students.

Inside the small liberal arts college that Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis wants to take over

New College of Florida looks set to become a pivotal battleground over the mission of public universities as Gov. Ron DeSantis wages his war on "woke."

www.latimes.com

The focus of the controversy was Christopher Rufo, the most prominent of six conservatives recently named trustees at New College of Florida by the state’s governor, Ron DeSantis, as part of his war on “woke.”

In a hyper-politicized age in which conservatives push for more control over what students are taught, this small college overlooking Sarasota Bay looks set to become a pivotal battleground in the war over the mission of public universities.

Rufo, best known for his activism against critical race theory in American education, had come to the left-leaning liberal arts school to hold a pair of town halls, one for faculty and the other for students.

Rufo has vowed to scrap “diversity, equity and inclusion” programs and hire new faculty with expertise in constitutional law, “American principles” and what he calls family values. Speir recently floated the idea of terminating all contracts with faculty, staff and administration and then immediately rehiring those who “fit in the new financial and business model.”

Education experts worry that the true aim of the new board is not academic freedom or diversity of thought but turning New College into a model for conservative education.

Many of the school’s 698 students fear that their professors will be banned from discussing topics such as race and gender.

“Right now, everyone is super scared,” said Ellen Benedict, 18, a marine biology student who identifies as nonbinary and is considering a transfer to another school, probably to somewhere in New York, in case DeSantis goes after other colleges in Florida.

“This is bigger than here,” Benedict said.

 

[lizkat]

I understand the concern. But there are bad teachers. Lots of objective measures of this in addition to parental feedback.

Lots of crap pay for USA teachers too, regardless of whether they are qualified for the job. It gets worse for college level instruction. This piece was from 2016. I dare say things have hardly improved since then.

Teacher pay around the world

<p>Just how underpaid are American teachers? Dick Startz shows that teacher salaries are not only low compared to other similarly educated American workers, but also much lower relatively than those of teachers in other industrialized nations. Increasing teacher salaries would not solve all...

www.brookings.edu

 

[Herdfan]

Lots of crap pay for USA teachers too, regardless of whether they are qualified for the job. It gets worse for college level instruction. This piece was from 2016. I dare say things have hardly improved since then.

Absolutely. Teachers should be paid much better than they are. They are literally our kid's futures. I was fortunate for my daughter to have some really good ones, including 2 state Teacher of the Year winners. She also had one really bad one.

 

[Huntn]

Absolutely. Teachers should be paid much better than they are. They are literally our kid's futures. I was fortunate for my daughter to have some really good ones, including 2 state Teacher of the Year winners. She also had one really bad one.

Pay them better, demand high standards…

 

[lizkat]

Pay them better, demand high standards…

The argument over standards is pretty daunting in this era where everything --everything-- is politically polarized in the USA.

And "good pay" is necessary, but won't be enough any more at least in K-12 school if things keep on as they've been doing: unruly behavior of the students, fear of mass shootings, lack of ancillary services at schools (teacher aides, school nurse teachers, counselors and social workers).

Some of the problems are from parents forgetting their own upbringing and somehow figuring kids will grow their own guardrails or be schooled AT school on "good behavior" once they're potty-trained and shipped off to kindergarten.

Some of the other problems are from parental micromanaging, figuring they invariably know what is best for their own kid and that that somehow translates into a right to mold a teacher's behavior and the curriculum to their own personal views.

But what's a parent to do? They're browbeaten all the time by dire warnings of what happens if they don't make every effort to see that their child is well educated. So we end up with the spectacle of parents struggling to learn "new math" or whatever just so they can help their kid struggling with homework to gain some kind of numeracy... or the spectacle of parents shrugging off the fact that their kid buys term papers (or will now use a chatbot). When push comes to shove the parent will stick up for the kid and show up to school and berate the teachers, who may or may not deserve the ding.

In the end it may come down to a societal deterioration in the ability to trust anyone. Trust has to be earned and can be pretty fragile. Social media generally works against trust. It inflates the worth of anecdotal data, emphasizes the negative, stirs hostility and creates expectation of instantaneous remediation of bad situations. All this remotely and in a passive-reactive manner. Meanwhile half the Monday morning quarterbacks wouldn't get out of a chair to go to a PTA meeting at their kid's school even if their real life depended on it.

On the bright side: a kid landing up with even one good teacher can make for a lifetime of awakened interest in learning. Humans are innately curious and imaginative as well, and kids are pretty resilient. Good we evolved to have that combination of tools from the outset, since the adults around us in our childhood can be real pieces of work sometimes. It's why we do need good teachers, and yes to pay them well, and provide the ancillary support they need to be able to offer education in a setting where it's more likely to be effective than is often the case now, whether the school is private, charter or public.

The missing piece though is still too often a made-clear parental expectation that the child will respect the teacher in a classroom. If the kid doesn't even behave at home, there's about zero chance he'll give a damn about what some adult says to him in a third-grade classroom once a few kids get to being rambunctious in there. What was cute in kindergarten is less so by the time the kids are 8 years old. And you couldn't pay me enough to be a teacher's aide for 7th or 8th graders today, never mind try to be a teacher without the help of an aide.

 

[AG_PhamD]

Agreed. However I don't think that the parents are a part of the teachers performance review. Too many helicopter parents with an axe to grind. Parents recourse would be to make a complaint to school administration where they can review if the teacher violated any rules or if the complaint has any merit. The review process including the action taken needs to be transparent though, and cannot be a closed door review session.

What do you mean by that? Parents in reality should have a healthy role in their childrens’ school education. On the other end of the spectrum there are a lot of parents who have zero interest in supporting their kid’s education. If there is a teacher that is not being effective or has other issues, who is going to advocate for the student (especially younger ones)?

And there seems to be some teachers/schools who are entirely well intended, but seem to overstep their bounds in determining what is best for their students in areas that that should be dealt with the parents or the degree to which they should be involved. Regardless of whether what they’re doing is right or wrong, it’s not their place.

Some of my friends are public school teachers. Obviously there are the annoying helicopter parents that are nuts and make ludicrous complaints, but I think they are pretty obviously identified as they will often complain year after year in the same school system, about all the teachers that their multiple children have.

I see nothing wrong with parental input in performance reviews as obviously the administration will have to take all factors into consideration. In the same way college professors get course reviews and I’m sure there is plenty negative, nonconstructive feedback.

It should be said though I do hear a lot of complaints from teachers about the administration siding with crazy parents, which is really just unacceptable. Not having the support of your boss in obvious situations is not an environment I think anyone would want to work in.

My theory on public schools today is that 1. More than a handful of kids are over medicated, or at least more so than... wait for it... "back in my day." Gosh I am officially old. 2. IMO public schools have a lot of pressure to do well on standardized testing. So... I think they don't teach with critical thinking in mind, but the curriculum is more geared towards preparing to pass the standardized test with good scores.

It’s not just public schools, it’s private schools too- in some cases it actually may be worse. As someone who works in psychiatric medicine, there is rampant over-medication of Americans. For children with minor behavioral problems, medicating them away is far too easy.

And then there are a lot of parents (and students themselves) who try to get their kids on stimulants like Ritalin, Adderall, Vyvanse, etc in the belief it will give them a competitive advantage in their education and ability to get into better colleges. I saw a lot of this when I was in private school in the 2000’s. In general, this phenomenon has only become worse.

There are some studies that claim children are not over-medicated, but work under the assumption every issue should be treated with drugs, which is inappropriate IMO.

Pay them better, demand high standards…

Agreed.

 

[Alli]

Parents in reality should have a healthy role in their childrens’ school education.

We no longer live in reality. When 15 year olds have babies, by the time those babies are ready for school, the 21 year old parents are just relieved to get them out of the house and regain their freedom. They hated school and don’t want to repeat it by being engaged with their children.

 

[rdrr]

What do you mean by that? Parents in reality should have a healthy role in their childrens’ school education. On the other end of the spectrum there are a lot of parents who have zero interest in supporting their kid’s education. If there is a teacher that is not being effective or has other issues, who is going to advocate for the student (especially younger ones)?

And there seems to be some teachers/schools who are entirely well intended, but seem to overstep their bounds in determining what is best for their students in areas that that should be dealt with the parents or the degree to which they should be involved. Regardless of whether what they’re doing is right or wrong, it’s not their place.

Some of my friends are public school teachers. Obviously there are the annoying helicopter parents that are nuts and make ludicrous complaints, but I think they are pretty obviously identified as they will often complain year after year in the same school system, about all the teachers that their multiple children have.

I see nothing wrong with parental input in performance reviews as obviously the administration will have to take all factors into consideration. In the same way college professors get course reviews and I’m sure there is plenty negative, nonconstructive feedback.

It should be said though I do hear a lot of complaints from teachers about the administration siding with crazy parents, which is really just unacceptable. Not having the support of your boss in obvious situations is not an environment I think anyone would want to work in.

My point in the parent input being excluded from the teacher performance review, is because of what you said. You cannot discern the crazy helicopter parents from those who have the best intentions but may be just too slightly involved. Example would be those parent who actually do their child's homework or project. Since you are not going to be able to separate those types of parents from those with normal concerns, then you should exclude or strongly dimmish all the parents input on teacher performance reviews.

Sure parents should be involved in their children's life and if a matter comes up that violates school rules, then by all means report the teacher to the school administration. However there is always going to be exceptions and mistakes made, for both the teacher and parent involvement. Educators are mandatory reporters for abuse (of any kind), and that is such a messy area I don't think one topic is going to be able to cover it.

 

[AG_PhamD]

My point in the parent input being excluded from the teacher performance review, is because of what you said. You cannot discern the crazy helicopter parents from those who have the best intentions but may be just too slightly involved. Example would be those parent who actually do their child's homework or project. Since you are not going to be able to separate those types of parents from those with normal concerns, then you should exclude or strongly dimmish all the parents input on teacher performance reviews.

Sure parents should be involved in their children's life and if a matter comes up that violates school rules, then by all means report the teacher to the school administration. However there is always going to be exceptions and mistakes made, for both the teacher and parent involvement. Educators are mandatory reporters for abuse (of any kind), and that is such a messy area I don't think one topic is going to be able to cover it.

I’m not sure why you could not discern the crazy parents from responsibly involved parents with legitimate concerns. I would hope such reviews would be considered in the context of the other reviews and with the review of administration in conversation with the teachers.

I suppose the teachers here can comment further, but I would assume most of those problem parents submit excessive complaints about all their kids teachers, year after year, and become recognized as nuts by staff and admins.

What is the alternative to assess teacher performance? Getting reviews from the students many of whom are probably not mature enough to be entirely objective? Basing it on standardized test scores- which often require the bare minimum of knowledge. Or some administrator sitting in a class once a semester and basing their entire judgement on that.

I don’t think there is a single tool that can be used to analyze teacher performance. It has to be a multifaceted approach and parental feedback should be a component. If one parent is constantly complaining while none of the others are, that’s one thing. It’s another if nearly all the parents have negative feedback. And at that point the administration should talk to the teacher and find the best way to support them. If all signs point to the teacher not being effective and no improvements are made, then maybe it’s time to consider changing their position or termination as a last resort.

As for issues outside of teachers responsibility, I’m not talking about mandated reporting of issues like abuse. The most common issues in the news are issues around student’s sexuality and gender identity being reported to teachers and not telling the parents. While I commend these teachers for supporting their students, IF the student is clearly suffering emotional distress associated with sexuality or gender it should be required to inform the parents, even if the students say otherwise.

The argument against this is that some parents may not accept their children’s identity- though often than not children assume the worst when in fact their parents will be supportive. And while I understand these concerns can be entirely legitimate, schools should have the responsibility to inform parents if their child is struggling with a mental health issue (to be clear distress caused by their identity, rather than the identity itself) so that child can get the help they need. Teachers do not have the qualification to provide mental healthcare. And the legal guardians of children should have the right to know if their kids are having problems recognized by the school.

Where the schools could best be involved in such cases is supporting the student in talking to their parents in a safe and compassionate environment- and not necessarily talking about gender/sex, but rather the negative emotions they are suffering so they can get professional help.

 

[Eric]

We no longer live in reality. When 15 year olds have babies, by the time those babies are ready for school, the 21 year old parents are just relieved to get them out of the house and regain their freedom. They hated school and don’t want to repeat it by being engaged with their children.

We hear "let's do anything in the world to stop this MURDER, please stop it at all costs!"

How about giving women free access to birth control and preventive reproductive services?

"Hell no. Outrageous!!!"

You simply cannot have a conversation with these people.

 

[fooferdoggie]

all this stupid shit is to destroy the school system so for profit schools take over. The GOP wants this so bad for some reason. not sure if it is so they have more control to keep kids ignorant or controlled or money?

 

[Eric]

all this stupid shit is to destroy the school system so for profit schools take over. The GOP wants this so bad for some reason. not sure if it is so they have more control to keep kids ignorant or controlled or money?

Would love to see them go after school shooters as hard as they do transexuals and black people.

 

[fooferdoggie]

Would love to see them go after school shooters as hard as they do transexuals and black people.

school shootings kinda work for them if you go private you can afford security right?