With Friends Like These…

[Chew Toy McCoy]

Of course Joe Manchin opposes abortion rights.

Manchin to oppose Democratic bill guaranteeing abortion access

Sen. Joe Manchin (D-W.Va.) on Wednesday said he would oppose a Democratic bill to guarantee abortion access nationwide, indicating that it was too broad to get his vote. Manchin’s decision, w…

thehill.com

Is there any issue on which he agrees with his own party?

I agree with you, but these parts I find concerning.

“But I would vote for a Roe v. Wade codification if it was today. I was hopeful for that, but I found out yesterday in caucus that that wasn’t going to be,” Manchin added."

"They removed a nonbinding findings section that, among other provisions, referred to restrictions on abortion as perpetuating “white supremacy” and called them “a tool of gender oppression.”

To me, that reads like Democrats were attempting to poison pill it. Why take it further than codifying Roe v Wade? Why insert inflammatory language (as true as it may be)?

 

[SuperMatt]

I agree with you, but these parts I find concerning.

“But I would vote for a Roe v. Wade codification if it was today. I was hopeful for that, but I found out yesterday in caucus that that wasn’t going to be,” Manchin added."

"They removed a nonbinding findings section that, among other provisions, referred to restrictions on abortion as perpetuating “white supremacy” and called them “a tool of gender oppression.”

To me, that reads like Democrats were attempting to poison pill it. Why take it further than codifying Roe v Wade? Why insert inflammatory language (as true as it may be)?

What the F are you talking about. The shit he is complaining about was already TAKEN OUT of the bill but he still won‘t vote for it.

And why are you “concerned” about the bill telling the truth about abortion? I’m more concerned that they took that out, and the people that pretended to be outraged about it STILL won’t vote for it. Which means they never gave a flying F about that in the first place, and just used it an excuse.

Give me an F-ing break. Manchin is a piece of , period. Every time they water down legislation in order to get him to vote for it, he ends up not voting for it anyway. He is utter trash.

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

What the F are you talking about. The shit he is complaining about was already TAKEN OUT of the bill but he still won‘t vote for it.

And why are you “concerned” about the bill telling the truth about abortion? I’m more concerned that they took that out, and the people that pretended to be outraged about it STILL won’t vote for it. Which means they never gave a flying F about that in the first place, and just used it an excuse.

Give me an F-ing break. Manchin is a piece of , period. Every time they water down legislation in order to get him to vote for it, he ends up not voting for it anyway. He is utter trash.

What was he objecting to specifically? The article didn't make that clear and neither did any other article I read about it. I'm not saying he isn't the living embodiment of bad faith arguments, but if the goal is to codify Roe v Wade then why put in ANYTHING that isn't specifically just that?

As far as the removed language, you're agreeing with my point. It gave some members an excuse. They didn't need to be given that opportunity which they predictably used. I'd like to think members of Congress are smarter than me, but I guess not. They decided to score a culture war talking point at the cost of a potential legislative victory.

 

[SuperMatt]

What was he objecting to specifically? The article didn't make that clear and neither did any other article I read about it. I'm not saying he isn't the living embodiment of bad faith arguments, but if the goal is to codify Roe v Wade then why put in ANYTHING that isn't specifically just that?

As far as the removed language, you're agreeing with my point. It gave some members an excuse. They didn't need to be given that opportunity which they predictably used. I'd like to think members of Congress are smarter than me, but I guess not. They decided to score a culture war talking point at the cost of a potential legislative victory.

Nope I’m not agreeing with your point. They weren’t trying to make a culture war point; it’s common practice to put findings into bills to justify the reason for the bill. It’s the GOP that takes a valid truth, then puts out nonsense calling that truth a lie, and suddenly the people telling the truth are the ones trying to start a culture war? Look at their attack on Math books. Were the publishers trying to start a culture war? Of course not.

If you align more closely with Republicans, get out there and stop the MAGAts from ruining the party; vote for sane people in the primaries. Because none of what you ever suggest Democrats SHOULD do is what the party is about... so they will never please you.

Or start the 3rd party you’re suggesting. I’d like to hear what you think this party should be, its platform, etc.

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

Nope I’m not agreeing with your point. They weren’t trying to make a culture war point; it’s common practice to put findings into bills to justify the reason for the bill. It’s the GOP that takes a valid truth, then puts out nonsense calling that truth a lie, and suddenly the people telling the truth are the ones trying to start a culture war? Look at their attack on Math books. Were the publishers trying to start a culture war? Of course not.

If you align more closely with Republicans, get out there and stop the MAGAts from ruining the party; vote for sane people in the primaries. Because none of what you ever suggest Democrats SHOULD do is what the party is about... so they will never please you.

Or start the 3rd party you’re suggesting. I’d like to hear what you think this party should be, its platform, etc.

I was unaware there is usually "because these type people" language in bills, sincerely. I thought it is usually just factual information in the bill along with any constitional justification.

I think if there was a definitive separate centrist Democrat party and leftist Progressive party their votes wouldn't align on a lot of issues if for no other reason than the Progressives probably would be more grassroots and not beholden to corporate interests. You'd have a lot less saying one thing and then voting the opposite or being forced to compromise with the establishment with false promises of a later win.

I'd even predict that if it was proven the Progressives were more of a voting threat untangled from Democrats the Democrats would lean more towards initiatives like voter ID under pressure from their rich donors threatened by the uppitty poor. The main reason I think the far right has been allowed to take over the Republicans is because they aren't attacking the economic establishment, or maybe more specifically, are far easier to get them to focus on culture wars and an imagined threat against white people. Progressives are way more focused on the class system which is a serious threat to the establishment and way more inclusive.

 

[SuperMatt]

I was unaware there is usually "because these type people" language in bills, sincerely. I thought it is usually just factual information in the bill along with any constitional justification.

I think if there was a definitive separate centrist Democrat party and leftist Progressive party their votes wouldn't align on a lot of issues if for no other reason than the Progressives probably would be more grassroots and not beholden to corporate interests. You'd have a lot less saying one thing and then voting the opposite or being forced to compromise with the establishment with false promises of a later win.

I'd even predict that if it was proven the Progressives were more of a voting threat untangled from Democrats the Democrats would lean more towards initiatives like voter ID under pressure from their rich donors threatened by the uppitty poor. The main reason I think the far right has been allowed to take over the Republicans is because they aren't attacking the economic establishment, or maybe more specifically, are far easier to get them to focus on culture wars and an imagined threat against white people. Progressives are way more focused on the class system which is a serious threat to the establishment and way more inclusive.

Here‘s the text of the bill. It is very similar to the way many bills are written. I am guessing the MAGA folks are angry about sections 5, 6, and 7. They offer valid reasoning as to why abortion should be protected. Making abortion illegal will have a disproportionate effect on marginalized groups. But for the “CRT is the devil” morons, this type of stuff probably triggered them bad enough that they wet their pants.

Text - H.R.3755 - 117th Congress (2021-2022): Women's Health Protection Act of 2021

Text for H.R.3755 - 117th Congress (2021-2022): Women's Health Protection Act of 2021

www.congress.gov

Also, Mitch lied about the bill being extreme and offering abortion up to the date of the birth. The law actually allows abortions up to the viability date (just like Roe) with exceptions after that date only for the safety of the mother.

I think Schumer was smart to push the bill. Get Republicans on the record that they oppose legal abortion. It’s a losing issue for the GOP and they would be more than happy to walk away from it. Schumer forced them to go on the record, and their attacks of “this bill is extreme” are a laugh.

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

Or start the 3rd party you’re suggesting. I’d like to hear what you think this party should be, its platform, etc.

Here's something I think a separate Progressive party would be about.

Second Bill of Rights - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Democrats are way too corrupt for something like that. So they can continue to worship big tech and Wall St and get whatever moderates who are attracted to that.

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

Here‘s the text of the bill. It is very similar to the way many bills are written. I am guessing the MAGA folks are angry about sections 5, 6, and 7. They offer valid reasoning as to why abortion should be protected. Making abortion illegal will have a disproportionate effect on marginalized groups. But for the “CRT is the devil” morons, this type of stuff probably triggered them bad enough that they wet their pants.

Text - H.R.3755 - 117th Congress (2021-2022): Women's Health Protection Act of 2021

Text for H.R.3755 - 117th Congress (2021-2022): Women's Health Protection Act of 2021

www.congress.gov

Also, Mitch lied about the bill being extreme and offering abortion up to the date of the birth. The law actually allows abortions up to the viability date (just like Roe) with exceptions after that date only for the safety of the mother.

I think Schumer was smart to push the bill. Get Republicans on the record that they oppose legal abortion. It’s a losing issue for the GOP and they would be more than happy to walk away from it. Schumer forced them to go on the record, and their attacks of “this bill is extreme” are a laugh.

I could see those sections getting the MAGA people all worked into a lather. They most likely believe minorities and women are getting a ton of preferential treatment they squandered and now it's the white man's time to shine, no more to be shackled to failure as they were shoved aside in favor of minorities and women. Or some shit.

I wish there was a law where politicians couldn't just blurt out "extremists" without being required to specify exactly what it is they are talking about.

 

[Huntn]

Of course Joe Manchin opposes abortion rights.

Manchin to oppose Democratic bill guaranteeing abortion access

Sen. Joe Manchin (D-W.Va.) on Wednesday said he would oppose a Democratic bill to guarantee abortion access nationwide, indicating that it was too broad to get his vote. Manchin’s decision, w…

thehill.com

Is there any issue on which he agrees with his own party?

DINO, think about it.

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

I have to admit seeing Machin singlehandedly tanking the passage is pretty brutal.

Have they voted on anything else Democrat driven since Manchin started enjoying his supervillain status? I feel like before this Manchin just said he'd oppose everything and they didn't bother taking it to a vote, the exceptions being the no brainer infrastructure bill and the blank military checks that always just fly on through.

Another note on my proposed Progressive party. There would be nowhere near a Manchin or Sinema in that party. Also by the time this happens, if ever, I'd expect some current members of the squad or progressive caucus wouldn't join it as their transformation into an establishment democrats will be complete.

 

[Herdfan]

I have to admit seeing Machin singlehandedly tanking the passage is pretty brutal.

How so? It takes 60 votes. He is 1.

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

How so? It takes 60 votes. He is 1.

doh! I was being a bit of a simpleton seeing the 49 to 51 split. 50/50 would have appeared better.

But to be fair along those same lines, we’re quickly heading towards a 30/70 split on most issues where somehow the 30 gets the win. But that’s also taking into account that public opinion counts. It does not.

 

[JayMysteri0]

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1524487379809095681/

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1524540290354356225/

 

[JayMysteri0]

The reality about Joe Manchin

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

The reality about Joe Manchin

I think the main source of frustration is most Americans aren’t in a position to do anything about it and have little faith in the voters who are. For all we know they have the same “screw the rest of the country!” mentality that Manchin does, possibly partially due to resentment about outsiders’ opinions or even an enjoyment of being the center of attention with outsized power. “I won’t be bullied!” seems to be the main motivator in right and center-right politics these days that completely overrides the ability to even contemplate the opposing viewpoint. Doubling down on pissing a lot of people off is the point and order of the day. I think Manchin always starts from a "No!" point and then sorts out the details from there, always focusing on the potential negative outcomes with little attention to the possible positives.

 

[JayMysteri0]

I think the main source of frustration is most Americans aren’t in a position to do anything about it and have little faith in the voters who are. For all we know they have the same “screw the rest of the country!” mentality that Manchin does, possibly partially due to resentment about outsiders’ opinions or even an enjoyment of being the center of attention with outsized power. “I won’t be bullied!” seems to be the main motivator in right and center-right politics these days that completely overrides the ability to even contemplate the opposing viewpoint. Doubling down on pissing a lot of people off is the point and order of the day. I think Manchin always starts from a "No!" point and then sorts out the details from there, always focusing on the potential negative outcomes with little attention to the possible positives.

I think the main issue with Manchin, is how unconcerned he seems to be with basically crushing the hopes of those who thought things would be MUCH better legislatively & progressively with 45 gone. Instead Manchin seems to have decided to make himself the focus, by being the constant thing that crumbles dem pilllar wishes. All with such casual disingenuousness it almost evokes rage. It's already given that r's will vote against anything, even if it is in their better interests, just to be obstinate. Manchin has made the decision that HE will be the gate keeper that denies whatever the country wants, because he can, and gives no fucks about the ill will. Even Sinema has gone into witness protection, because of the constant heat. Manchin because he is so protected that unless it's something that benefits him directly, it suddenly costs too much money or has harsh language he can't handle in it. The ability of one man / vote ( and that is what it is because of our current political situation no matter how much someone wants to pretend they don't get that ) to thwart the will of the people is the literal antithesis of what so many say this country is about.

I think Manchin has just come to realize that playing the "villain", then pretending he's not, has become addictive. The man is being who he always has been. Not so much starting from a no position, but starting from a "What's in it for me?" position. If there's nothing in it for him, "fuck it", and he imagines he's being reasonable in saying so.

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

In some positive related news...

"Joe Manchin of the House" bites the dust: Corporate Dems keep falling

With Kurt Schrader's apparent defeat in Oregon, the Blue Wall of status-quo corruption keeps on crumbling

www.salon.com

Joe Manchin has become a synonym for corrupt moderate corporatist Democrats holding back progress. Calling a member or candidate a Joe Manchin saves a lot of explanation time and paints a really clear picture.

 

[Huntn]

In some positive related news...

"Joe Manchin of the House" bites the dust: Corporate Dems keep falling

With Kurt Schrader's apparent defeat in Oregon, the Blue Wall of status-quo corruption keeps on crumbling

www.salon.com

Joe Manchin has become a synonym for corrupt moderate corporatist Democrats holding back progress. Calling a member or candidate a Joe Manchin saves a lot of explanation time and paints a really clear picture.

I don’t consider him a Democrat, definitely not liberal.

 

[SuperMatt]

Why did Manchin really abandon “Build Back Better” last year? Apparently, it was a tantrum over a statement that Biden issued saying he would be negotiating with Manchin (which was absolutely true, and also quite well known). Manchin reportedly got extremely angry and 3 days later went on Fox to tell everybody that BBB was dead.

If he cares more about his hurt feelings because somebody didn’t word a press release the exact way he wanted… maybe he really SHOULD go in with all the other Republicans.

I don’t know about you, but I try to vote for people who I hope will give a about their country. Instead, we have a caucus of the selfish. They don’t care about governing. All they care about is staying in power and feeding their egos.

Here’s a new article from the Washington Post detailing the issues with Manchin and BBB. Don’t want to read the whole thing? You already know most of it. Anytime Joe didn’t get exactly what HE wanted (even when he hadn’t told others what he wanted), he flipped out. What a disgrace he is.

https://wapo.st/38Rh2xT

(paywall removed)

PS - The article tries to make it a Biden v Manchin fight, but if you look at the details, it’s Manchin against the entire party and a majority of American voters.

 

[Herdfan]

Why did Manchin really abandon “Build Back Better” last year? Apparently, it was a tantrum over a statement that Biden issued saying he would be negotiating with Manchin (which was absolutely true, and also quite well known). Manchin reportedly got extremely angry and 3 days later went on Fox to tell everybody that BBB was dead.

Left a little bit out of this don't you think?

They were negotiating and Manchin had come off his original public position on some issues and they were making progress. But then he found out the WH was going to issue a statement blaming him for the problems and he insisted that some others (Sinema, Kelly and a couple others) be named as well. The WH then still blamed only him in the middle of negotiating. At that point he was done.